[00:00] SPEAKER_00:
This episode of Principal Center Radio is brought to you by the Project-Based Learning Network. Dr. Amy Bader, the director, is a professional curriculum writer and the leading expert on standards-based PBL. She trains teachers how to write high-quality PBL units in the Project-Based Learning Curriculum Developer Certification Program, and she teaches leaders how to implement successful PBL initiatives in the Project-Based Learning Instructional Leader Program. Learn more at principalcenter.com slash PBL.
[00:28] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:41] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Dr. Adam Tyner. Adam Tyner, PhD, is National Research Director at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute. Dr. Tyner served as Senior Quantitative Analyst at the...
[00:54]
And he is an executive editor of the Oklahoma Education Journal.
[01:22]
Okay.
[01:43]
Adam, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Great to be with you, Justin. I'm excited to talk about this report because you actually commissioned a large and nationally representative survey of teachers about so-called equitable grading practices. Talk to us a little bit about why you commissioned this survey through the Rand Corporation and maybe why equitable is in quotation marks.
[02:09] SPEAKER_01:
Well, there have been a lot of grading reforms that people have talked about over the last few years that have been branded as equitable grading reforms. The truth is, people have been debating grading policy since the dawn of time. I mean, you go back a hundred years or more, even more than that, and you'll find people talking about how grades are not consistent or they're not fair or pointing out different kinds of problems with them. And so, in recent years, we've heard advocates suggest that we should reform grading practices, and they've done so under the banner of equity. Frankly, some of the things that they have suggested we change about grades are ideas that are not really very new and sometimes tenuously connected to equity. But that has been kind of the branding for the last few years, and so that's why we use that term, equitable grading practices, quote unquote, in the title of the report.
[03:02]
But while we've heard about that from anecdotes around the country and a lot of controversy that's been surrounding some of the discussions of reform and grading policy, we haven't really known... How widespread these policies were or how teachers felt about them. And so we wanted to do this study to really learn that. And, you know, the grading reforms that people have debated, there's just a lot of different dimensions to them.
[03:32]
And I wrote a policy brief on this last year with my colleague, Meredith Coffey, where we looked at a bunch of different dimensions. of grading practices and grading policies, and there are some that have to do with, you know, making grading anonymous, for example. The underlying issue is that there is evidence that there's bias in grading and bias against Black students, for example, bias against different types of students, and so there are people who want to try to make grading better and make it fairer. But there are a bunch of different policies and practices that have gone under this rubric, equitable grading, You know, we hear about places where students need to bring school supplies to school and they get extra credit for that or something. And so that's going into their grade. That's something that reformers often bring up as something that's kind of obviously inequitable, obviously not connected to whether you learned anything in school, and therefore something that we should get rid of.
[04:30]
But there's been a bunch of other policies and practices that they've suggested, such as getting rid of deadlines, Or policies around changing the grading scale, for example, making it go from 50 to 100, so you automatically get 50% regardless of what you did, or if you didn't even turn in the assignment. Or changing the grading scale in other ways to make it more lenient, or make it easier for students to pass. And some of those have been really controversial. And so, the point of this policy, uh, paper that we put out of this new study and the survey of teachers is to find out how widespread is this stuff and what do teachers actually think of it? And we really focused on some of the most controversial policies that have come out around that just because we had kind of limited bandwidth in our survey.
[05:16] SPEAKER_00:
Right, right. And you focused on five in the end. Tell us what those five practices are that you asked about in the survey.
[05:23] SPEAKER_01:
Right. So there, like I said, are a bunch of dimensions to this and a bunch of different things people have advocated for. Uh, we really wanted to focus on the ones that had gotten the most attention in the media that people have been talking about in school board, uh, meetings. And, I mean, we just wanted to talk about the ones that had kind of generated the most interest. Uh, given the kind of limited bandwidth we had in the survey. And so we talked about five policies.
[05:48]
Those five policies were the kind of no-zeros policy, where we would... Some people call it minimum grading, where students are assigned a grade of...
[05:58]
Okay, so...
[06:23]
Um, we also asked about homework and graded homework, like, removing all grades around homework, which is one thing that the advocates have suggested. And we also talked about eliminating grades for participation. Those were the five practices that we focused on in this report. But I should say that, you know, grading reformers suggest a lot of different types of things. We were able to focus on these in this study. Um, but there are other...
[06:49]
policies related to equitable grading, things like using rubrics, or, uh, anonymized grading, or, or there's other aspects of this, and we didn't ask about everything, uh, but we did ask about those five policies.
[07:05] SPEAKER_00:
And certainly, there's room for critique in traditional grading. There are plenty of practices out there that are common that, you know, deserve some scrutiny, deserve some critique. As you said, you know, bringing school supplies in for a grade does not necessarily make a lot of sense and is not equitable. And being equitable is a legitimate concern, right? It's a real thing. We're not downplaying the importance of equitable practices.
[07:30]
But we're also saying that... simply calling a practice equitable doesn't fix problems with it. And teachers seem to have a pretty deep firsthand understanding of what some of those problems are. Uh, and of the five that you talk about in the report, only one of them had kind of a net positive score, uh, and that was retakes.
[07:51]
So teachers, you know, maybe do like the idea of allowing students to retake assignments to improve their grade. Um, what was the least popular policy of all that you studied?
[08:00] SPEAKER_01:
The least popular of the five was the no-zeros policy, or minimum grading. Assigning students points for assignments that they didn't even turn in, I think is how we put it in the question. And that had a very negative rating among teachers. Very few teachers think that that's a good thing. Yeah.
[08:43]
The unlimited retake policy was really kind of split. It was a net 4%, which really means that teachers are pretty split about that one. And other ones, like, I think that, you know, getting rid of deadlines, no late penalties, that's 33 points underwater with teachers. Getting rid of participation, 46% underwater with teachers. Getting rid of homework grades, 19% underwater with teachers.
[09:07] SPEAKER_00:
So the 50% minimum grade policies or the no-zero policies seem pretty straightforwardly bad, and certainly to the majority of teachers seem pretty bad. And you say that, by definition, those are a way of lowering academic expectations and inflating grades. Like, there's no way around the fact that we're giving students points for work they didn't do. In your thinking, what's the sealman case for those policies? Because I've heard advocates say, well, you know, the zero has too big a penalty on the grade, and this is just a way of correcting that outsized penalty. From your experience talking with people and reading about these policies and the case behind them, what are they really going for here that has made these policies so popular?
[09:51]
Because with teachers, they're not popular, and yet they're all over the place.
[09:55] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, and our survey also asked about how common these policies were. 27% of teachers said that there was some kind of minimum grading going on in their school or district, that that was the policy in their school or district that was practicing some kind of no-zeros or minimum grading policy. I think it's interesting you asked for the steel man case. I was thinking about that a little bit. And I think that the argument is something like that, you know, a grade of zero, uh, could...
[10:24]
They use the word catastrophic sometimes. It creates this, you know, that's so bad for your grade that you can't recover from it. Something like that. But I really think that that's probably based on a strawman vision of holistic grading and how most teachers work, because I have never encountered...
[10:43]
A syllabus or a teacher or a class where there was some assignment early in the year that you couldn't make up and that it was so big a part of your grade that if you missed it, you would fail the class. That's just not something that I've ever encountered. You can tell me you work with lots of schools if you've ever encountered that on a syllabus. Most...
[11:05]
Teachers are attuned to the idea that there's a balancing act here and some trade-offs when it comes to how much you should front-load or back-load the grading in a term. Because you want it to be reflective of a bunch of different things, ideally. This grade could be reflective of, you know, the student's really mastery of everything at the end of the term. But we also know that the students, at least most people agree, that the students need some shorter-term objectives as well. And so how to weight all of those is something that teachers grapple with, and it's fair to talk about those trade-offs. But I'm not aware of any teacher who is out there saying, like, you missed this assignment the third week, and now you're going to fail the course, and we're not going to let you retake it or something.
[11:49]
It could mean that you won't get an A in the course. That's true, maybe. But I'm not aware, I think it's kind of a straw man, you know, vision of holistic grading to think that we can't have any kind of, you know, grading early on that affects your final grade without being this really detrimental thing for students.
[12:12] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, and it seems like there's a little bit of a trade-off there, because certainly it is a real thing to get discouraged, right? Like, if you didn't do any work for the first three-fourths of the semester, like, you're pretty far behind. You're in a pretty deep hole, and it may be difficult to dig your way out. And you could feel very discouraged if you were, you know, certainly a lot of people have said, you know, that was me, I just didn't do my work for months and months, and I was, you know, I was in a pretty deep hole. And it is hard to come back from that. But at the same time, we have to make sure that we're balancing that concern against motivation in the first place.
[12:45]
Like, there really are no consequences for not doing any of your assignments or, you know, for skipping the majority of your assignments. And, like, kids figure that out, right? Teachers know kids have figured out, hey, I don't really have to do any work after January, and I can pass this class. Talk to us about your take on that. Yeah.
[13:25] SPEAKER_01:
It's like we're always looking back and saying, what about the student who, you know, at some point, you know, made a mistake in the past? Shouldn't there be any chance for redemption for them? And that's fine. You know, I think we have a lot of those built into traditional braiding. And it may be that we need to have another route in certain circumstances. Those are the kinds of things that teachers have to balance.
[13:47]
But to act like we should just remove all of the short-term stuff... That is really dangerous because procrastination is a really powerful force. And it is really one of the benefits of school to have the structure and the accountability in the short term to help you meet your longer term objectives. And that's exactly what students are depending on teachers and school for.
[14:13]
If they want to learn something, we could say, you know, just go to the library and learn it. It's all there. Use Khan Academy, right? But you might always feel like, you know, that'd be easier tomorrow, or I could catch up later. And some of these policies basically say, yeah, you could do it later. It's fine.
[14:32]
You know, you don't really have to have any kind of short-term... You don't have to meet any short-term, uh...
[14:39]
And that encourages students to procrastinate, to kick the can down the road, and then what happens later is that they arrive at that point in the road and they just never did it, and then there's no recovering from it. And so, yes, there is a trade-off there, and teachers need to balance this in a way that's reasonable, but they shouldn't be just blanket eliminating everything short-term. I think that's gonna be a real mistake. I would say that there's some research on this as well, that students...
[15:11]
I think I've seen a couple of papers where students were offered the opportunity... I think this was in a higher ed setting, but...
[15:18]
Where they were offered the opportunity to either turn in all their assignments at the end of the term, or to space them out, and they were offered the chance to penalize themselves. And, like, some kind of economic, rational way of thinking of it is, well, you should maximize your freedom and just have it all do at the end, not impose any penalties on yourself. But students don't do that. Students are actually choose deadlines and choose to penalize themselves for not meeting them. And that's because there's a value to having that accountability in the shorter term, and if schools aren't willing to provide it, we're really doing a disservice to students, and it's almost certainly going to be bad for
[15:58] SPEAKER_00:
Right, and that's where sometimes our lenience, which we think of as a form of compassion, actually is not doing our students any favors, right? Like, when my kids were little, we were not lenient about brushing your teeth, because we wanted them to develop that habit, and it wouldn't have been compassionate to, you know, let their teeth rot and fall out, and I think we've got to... Right. Right.
[16:42]
And I think we're all tempted in that way to procrastinate, right? Like, it's always more appealing in the short term. You know, we are all subject to this short-term thinking of, you know, I'd rather have some free time now, and I'll do the work later. And of course, that doesn't work out well for us. So, as you said, we need those deadlines. And from an equity standpoint, schools need to provide that structure Because that's a lot of our technology, right?
[17:05]
You know, students, as you said, could learn on their own. Well, they mostly don't. You know, the books are not scarce. The information is not scarce. You can learn any subject in school just on Google pretty easily. But it's the structure and the accountability that we put in place, right?
[17:18] SPEAKER_01:
That's really well said, Justin. I would just say, to add to that, Yeah.
[17:44] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, you say in the paper, Adam, that a lot of people think of grade inflation as a victimless crime, but it's really not. That's right.
[17:51] SPEAKER_01:
There's research that goes back decades, but I've also done some of this research myself with collaborators, Seth Gershenson, Steve Holt, who are economists, and we've looked... Our paper, for example, looked at math courses in high school, and we looked at how strict of a grader the teachers were. And so there's variation in how strict the teachers are at grading. Are they giving up that A really easily, or do you really have to go above and beyond to get it?
[18:20]
And the way that we can measure that is we know the students' attendance records, and we know how they did on their end-of-course exam, which every North Carolina student has to take. And then we can compare that to the grades that they take home. And then we can look at teachers, and the teacher who has students who are failing the end of course exam and, you know, showing up to class, they're chronically absent, they're not showing up to class very much either, and then they're getting A's, we know that that teacher is not having real high grading standards. As opposed to a teacher who may be giving a B for a student who's doing really well on the end of course exam at the end and is showing up to class all the time, right? That's just kind of a stylized example because it's a statistical model, but that's the basic idea is that we can measure how strict of a grader the teacher is. And what we learn is that students learn more when they have a stricter grading teacher.
[19:14]
And we're not the only ones to find this. There's a study, I think David Figlio did it in Florida, in elementary schools. There's been a couple of other studies as well that have looked at this, and they find that the teachers who have higher grading standards, that is, they're stricter, they're tougher graders... their students tend to learn more.
[19:32]
And so, it's really important, not just the deadlines, but also, what's the expectation here? Is that, are we giving every student an A, or every student an A or a B? Like, the good students get the A's, and the less good students get the B's? I think there's a lot of places where that's the point that we've gotten to. If you look at the grade inflation environment, this has changed a lot in the last year. People have been complaining about grade inflation, also, since, like, the dawn of time.
[19:58]
But the truth is that in the last few years, we've hit a kind of new territory where, like, ACT had a report, uh, last year or the year before where they showed that the ACT scores were the lowest on record and the GPAs were the highest on record. We also have... the GPA not being as good of a predictor, at least in elite academic contexts as it used to be. It used to be that GPA was almost always the best predictor of post-secondary success, better than test scores.
[20:28]
That is not the case, at least for elite colleges now. And it's one reason why they have to bring back the SAT and the ACT, some of the places that got rid of that for a little while, are bringing it back, because GPA is not very predictive anymore, at least in those contexts. Well, and how could it be if everybody gets an A, right? Absolutely. That's exactly what's happening. And you've got to think about it not just from those institutional perspectives, but also for parents and for students.
[20:54]
Although I think for parents it's even worse. I think students are kind of aware of the great environment. Right.
[21:19]
They don't know that the median grade is an A and that their student is actually doing worse than almost everyone else in their classroom. Learning Heroes has done really great work on this as an organization that helps connect with parents and helps them to understand what's going on in their kids' report cards and everything. And they've shown that 90% of parents think that their kid is on grade level when the actual number is somewhere between 25% and 50%. It's nowhere near the 90%. So this is a real breakdown. When we have all this grade inflation, when we have low standards for students, and this is directly, you know, associated with some aspects of the equitable grading movement, which, you know, we're giving you 50 instead of zero on every assignment.
[22:01]
That is just automatic grade inflation. It's just making it harder to tell whether a student is really performing well, or if they're performing mediocre, or if they really need a bunch of extra resources and help to get where they need to go.
[22:15] SPEAKER_00:
And there's kind of a fundamental issue here that we've been addressing in a way, and that is whether grades should only reflect mastery or, you know, the learning itself, or whether grades should also reflect effort in some way. And I thought this was interesting because you have a chart on page 18 that reveals a bit of a contradiction in teachers' views. And overwhelmingly, teachers do want the option to include things like participation and homework in grades, And yet, when the survey asked them directly, only 36% of teachers said that grades should be based partly on effort. And the alternative there was that grades should be based on objective standards as opposed to effort. Talk to us a little bit about that kind of contradictory finding there that, like...
[23:01]
There are these two ideas that we're trying to keep in our heads here, that, like, yes, your grades shouldn't just be, you know, everybody gets a gold star, like, you actually have to learn stuff to get good grades, but also, you know, should effort be factored into grades? Take us into that, a little bit of that contradiction.
[23:17] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah.
[23:38]
Should it have things like participation and your effort and whether you turned your homework in on time? Should that be a part of your grade, too? And I think for a lot of people, I've spoken with teachers who are very passionate that they think it really should just be based on what you know at the end of the term. That's what a grade should mean. And I've also talked to people who believe that the whole reason that grades have been the best predictor of your future performance is because they incorporate more than just your, say, cognitive skill and whether you really mastered this material, which is a very important part of it. But maybe not the only part of school, right?
[24:20]
Showing up is an important part. Collaborating is important. Participating is important. And so, uh, I think that this is just attention. I think some teachers see this one way, some see it the other way. And I don't think that it necessarily has much to do with, you know, being lenient or being strict.
[24:37]
I think that there are people who are promoters of standards-based grading or mastery grading who are really trying to fight grade inflation and who are holding their students, you know, accountable strictly to those, you know, standards. And that's the way that they're doing it. And, uh, but I do worry a little bit. about the idea that only your final knowledge can really count in the grade because of what we were talking about earlier around deadlines. I really think it's important that the student is not just faced with, you know, six months from now you need to know a bunch of stuff, and, you know, if you figure out that we're not really grading anything, nothing really counts until then...
[25:21]
That, um, you might just procrastinate. And I worry about that. I do think that there are teachers who are solving that in other ways. And so, I think it's important to make sure that we're talking about the implementation here and the way that the teachers are doing this. Our purpose with this report was really to elevate teachers' perspectives to show, yes...
[25:43]
I think, you know, what we found is that teachers are quite skeptical of a lot of these policies. But the real takeaway for me is that administrators need to be really careful about removing tools from teachers. Like saying, you can't include participation in your student's grade. Now, most teachers thought that having some participation grades is good. But there are teachers out there who don't like that and think there are other ways to get students to participate rather than taking it into the grade. And that is totally legitimate within the context You know, of balancing all of these different types of incentives and accountability and classroom management, as long as they're thinking about those and making sure that it's working for their class, that's legitimate.
[26:24]
But what's really scary is when we get, you know... PD providers going into districts, convincing the administrators, don't let any of your teachers grade homework anymore or grade participation anymore, or they're taking away a lot of the tools that teachers have used to hold their students accountable. And I just really think that that is likely to backfire. And it really deserves the kind of derision and controversy that it has prompted in a lot of the places that have tried to implement some of this stuff from the top down in districts.
[27:00] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, it's been really interesting to see how standards-based grading has been a part of that with the rationale that we're more accurately reporting on student mastery. Like, it sounds like an improvement, but I think you touched on this, that, you know, typically when this happens, what we're seeing is grade inflation. Right? The learning as measured by reliable tests goes down and the grades go up. So something is fishy about this idea that we're, like, just measuring learning and, you know, we're taking away so many tools from teachers. And, like, the cynical part of me...
[27:36]
So, that's kind of how, to me, that seems like how we kind of got where we are.
[27:55] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I think that mastery grading or standards-based grading, I think there's variation there, Justin. I don't think that you're always seeing grades going up. In fact, I think in some places, you're probably seeing the fact that you're attaching these qualitative labels to the grade as opposed to ABC grades might actually help reset some of the expectations that have... perpetuated great inflation in some places.
[28:22]
So, I think that you're right. That's probably happening in a lot of places. But I do think there are probably places that are implementing this in a really thoughtful way. And I don't want to say those teachers are necessarily wrong for trying that as long as they're thinking through all of this stuff. On the other hand, the issue you raise with administrators is really worth underlining. Because administrator incentives here are kind of Yeah.
[29:04]
It is really incentivizing them to find ways to make it easier for students to pass. And I have to say, that cynical side of you, I think you're homing in on something that is really a problem. I had one superintendent email me a couple of months ago, and they sent me a justification he found on the internet. That was from a university or some kind of educational institution that was done by researchers where they were showing different grading scales and saying that... Justifying minimum grading and zero to four grading.
[29:39]
The entire point was that if you had two students who had the same performance on their assessments or their grade or their homework assignments... That if you switch to the zero to four grading, the student would get a B, and in this other case, the student would get a C or something. They said that that makes it more oriented towards success. That's a direct quote.
[30:03]
And so, you know, oriented towards success, that sounds nice, but what you're really saying is that the student did the same amount of work, did the same level of performance, and you just handed them a higher grade. Yeah. That's the definition of grade inflation. And so I think that administrators, unfortunately, need to think, you know, they need to really think clearly about what is it that we're incentivizing in our district, and is there a way for me to get the teachers and the departments together to help devise some other measures so that we can have measures of student success in our school or our district that really measure their learning and their growth And are not just about passage, you know, getting more students past the class or getting those marginal students across, even if they're not learning more. I've had the same problem with credit recovery programs around the country, where there's a lot of just, you know, getting students to kind of click through some modules so we can say that the student completed a core course that they actually failed.
[31:05]
And they didn't, they're not really learning anything, but the administrators are getting credit then for them passing. And absent some external validation of student learning, which we do have in some cases, like in North Carolina, we have end-of-course assessments for Algebra 1, like I was just talking about. They also have it for Geometry and Algebra 2. In some fields, that's a good, that's a good check on everybody. Really adds some transparency to what students are actually learning, and you can make these kind of calculations of how many students are passing the algebra end-of-course exam, and how many are failing but still getting really good grades, and what's going on in our district. I think that, at the end of the day, is the kind of thing that really helps add transparency and change the incentives.
[31:50]
But in the short term, I think administrators have got to fight the good fight and not give in to the temptation to try to lower standards and make their numbers look better.
[31:59] SPEAKER_00:
And as you said, that's tough because the incentives that they face are poorly aligned with learning. I love the way you said that earlier, that the incentives are just not well aligned. And teachers see this, right? I think that was a lot of the wisdom of doing this survey, is that teachers see these issues very clearly because they can see, in real time, my students are slacking off after they realize they can't possibly fail even if they don't do any work. They realize my students are procrastinating because they have these unlimited retakes and no deadlines and all of that. So they can see...
[32:28]
Yeah.
[32:49]
And aren't really held accountable for the impact on learning. So I have some harsh words here for the consultants who have not really worried about that and just said, hey, this is going to be good. This is going to be a good thing. What do you see as the responsibility of consultants who are pushing some of these kind of unproven changes?
[33:08] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I think one of the big problems is that they've been advocating for district-wide policies. And I am a lot less concerned about some of these... First of all, some of the equitable grading reforms are good. I mean, I like the idea of using rubrics where that's workable.
[33:24]
There may be some cases where that's not, but we know there's anti-Black bias in grading, for example. David Quinn is a scholar who has done really great work on this. He's done experimental work. showing that if you just have a grading artifact, like a thing that looks like an assignment, and you change the...
[33:41]
It says, my brother, Colin, in one of them, and it says, it's the exact same thing that researchers manipulate. It says, my brother, Colin, on one artifact, and the other homework assignment says, my brother, Dante... that Dante's brother, not a real person, right, it's just the researchers have created these, but quote-unquote Dante's brother gets lower grades from teachers. Teachers have a systemic anti-Black bias in that sense.
[34:07]
It doesn't necessarily apply to all teachers, but in the aggregate, that's what David Quinn found. And what he also found is that if you implement a grading rubric, The bias disappears. There's also bias towards other categories of students. And so, I think getting rid of bias is good. Making grading fair is better. And some of the proposals have been good.
[34:28]
But the concern is when we have district-wide policies that lower standards and expectations for students. And district-wide policies that remove the ability of teachers to hold students accountable for showing up participating, doing their homework, turning in things on time, and even doing the assignment at all in the case of giving them 50% when they didn't turn in an assignment. Those policies lower standards, they lower expectations for students, and I don't think any district ought to be implementing that from the top down. If a teacher or a department wants to experiment with some of those, that's not such a bad idea because they can always react and say, this isn't working for us. Or this is working for us, or we need this other thing to complement it. That's a lot more workable.
[35:15]
But when you have these, like, district-wide mandates that say you can no longer grade, you know, impose late penalties on anything, that's just a terrible idea that it's understandable why so many teachers dislike it.
[35:29] SPEAKER_00:
So the report is Equitable Grading Through the Eyes of Teachers. Adam, if people want to learn more about some of the research you do at Fordham, where's the best place for them to go online?
[35:40] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, they should go to fordhaminstitute.org. We have a website with all of our research reports. We put out new research about every month or so. We have a new research report coming out on a variety of topics related to education policy in the country. We have our own podcast.
[35:56]
We have a blog. So... They can sign up. They can check us out.
[36:00]
They're at fortamiss.org, and we'd love to hear from anybody, teachers, principals, or any of your audience who's, you know, had questions about this stuff or has a reaction to any of our work on grading policy or anything else. We'd love to hear from them.
[36:14] SPEAKER_00:
Well, Adam, thank you for elevating the voices of teachers, and thank you for joining me today on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Justin. Thank you.
[36:22] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
