[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here is your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Baeder. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:12] Justin Baeder:
I'm your host, Justin Baeder, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Brian J. Stevens. Brian is the founder and CEO of KESA K-12, a strategy firm serving public school districts nationwide. He has presented at national conferences and organizations such as the School Superintendents Association, the National School Boards Association, and the Consortium of State School Boards Associations. He served in the U.S. Army, rising to the rank of captain, and is an attorney and psychologist by training.
[00:39]
And Brian is the author of the new book, A Level Playing Field, Strategies to Ensure Public Schools Success.
[00:46] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:48] Justin Baeder:
Brian, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:49] Brian J. Stephens:
Well, thank you, doctor. I appreciate you having me on. And you got the name pronounced right. You said Kesa right. I mean, good for you. Like A plus, you know, I always like to debate and argue about how to pronounce a name because it's just kind of fun for me.
[01:01]
But yeah, yeah. Thank you having me on. I appreciate it.
[01:04] Justin Baeder:
Well, let's talk about the big idea of your book, A Level Playing Field. What did you see happening in our society that prompted you to write this book?
[01:12] Brian J. Stephens:
Well, it's kind of weird that I didn't think I'd be doing this necessarily for a living. I like to teach. I like to have the perceived notion of being an academic and a lot of things. But years ago, 10 years ago, we saw school choice on the rise. And I thought...
[01:26]
School choice. That sounds awesome, right? I mean, I'm an American. People that want to compete and rise the tide for all children sound like such a great idea. And then I really started to dig in to the subject and the basic gist is I don't think we have school choice. I think we have school coercion.
[01:45]
We have school theater. It looks like choice. It's painted like choice, but it's not actual choice. So if you want to dig into the history with me, Justin, it's as public education goes, so does society. And I got really alarmed. I got really alarmed that if we lose good, vibrant, free public education for all students that society suffers.
[02:10]
And I sound a little bit like an alarmist right now, but the facts show what the outcomes are going to be. And what we're doing right now, if we don't adjust, we'll hobble millions of children for the next generation. And so that's what inspired the writing of the book.
[02:23] Justin Baeder:
So Brian, you argue in the book that public schools are not truly competing on a level playing field against the charter and private schools in their areas, especially when we have some of the newer school choice policies that are making it easy for other schools to get funding that previously would have been reserved for public schools. Take us into some of the dimensions of that unequal playing field.
[02:46] Brian J. Stephens:
Yeah, and I think it's important to note that I like competition. I do have a blueprint in the book for things that the public schools should be doing to improve their game, right? To provide a better service to the students that they have, right? And if they do that...
[03:04]
Competition is great because people can move and make a good choice about what they want for their student, what's best for their students. And maybe some schools are different. You want a smaller school. You want a school with a STEM program. I just want the parents to have all the information first, right, before they end up making their buyer's choice, right? And every few years they should reevaluate their choice, which is what we do with our daughter, right?
[03:27]
But the thing that we have to be very aware of right now is as the rules stand today, and I don't blame. People that use vouchers, I don't blame the parents. I don't think blame is a very useful tool at all for any of this. It's a matter of the legislatures have made some decisions. And I think that sometimes the results of those decisions, people don't see clearly. And it's okay to go, we...
[03:51]
For instance, legislatures 20 years ago said high graduation rates. And everyone said, that makes a lot of sense. And then we figured out that people just got promoted and graduated even though they weren't ready. Okay, so we made a mistake, no blame. Let's just uncoil that. Let's uncoil that.
[04:05]
But I'd like to uncoil that for all schools of all types. You know, not just a voucher school or a public school, but for everybody. Because if that's a good rule, let's just make it equitable. So, but if you think about...
[04:19]
the student body. There's a lot of students with a lot of needs out there. And since COVID, you have kids with a lot of They need mental health. They have learning disabilities. I mean, I had a speech impediment as a child. Like, I couldn't say R's and S's, so I'd say fire quacka.
[04:36]
I mean, people laugh. I'd get beat up a little bit for it. But public schools really helped me because they had those speech pathologists. And if their resources are being pulled away and the only students that are over there are the ones in more need, then we have to make sure that we're giving them the funding to take care of those students if the goal is creating a great adult. Right. So I think that the funding model, and this is one of the things I talk about in the book, I think the funding model for all schools of all types should be adjusted.
[05:03]
And that's at the national and state legislative levels. Right. We have to adjust. Yeah, the money follows the student, but students that are in more need should get additional funding. Students that have less need should get less funding because the goal is to get them started as young adults the right way. And that's really the premise of like this blueprint I have in the book of like eight things public schools need to do to more adequately compete fairly.
[05:30]
And then whatever the families pick, the families pick.
[05:32] Justin Baeder:
I wonder if we could get into some of your research on what matters to families, because often when people do leave public schools, they will say exactly what their reasons were, what they felt was not being attended to well. And you mentioned that you have a blueprint for schools to follow to really attend to those issues that maybe they have not been prioritizing. What are some of the main reasons that parents cite? For leaving public schools, because as you noted, there are some obvious downsides. You know, you might lose proximity to your neighborhood school. You might lose bus transportation.
[06:05]
You might lose meal service. You might lose special education services. I mean, there are a lot of things that public schools offer that private and charter schools often don't. And yet there are reasons that people are making those choices that I think we do have to listen to in public schools. So take us into some of those.
[06:19] Brian J. Stephens:
Yeah, we also, it's a great question because we run a national poll every year. We've done it for about the last eight years, eight or nine years now, where we look and we specifically ask parents, what are you interested in? What are you looking for? Are you shopping? Are you interested? Because we want to kind of know what people's thoughts are.
[06:36]
And there are two main drivers. that every parent that I've ever seen wants for their child. The first is their babies are safe. Their babies are safe. They want their children safe. Makes sense.
[06:48]
The younger they are, the safer we want them. The older they are, we let them take a little bit more risk. You know, I let my daughter, I don't let her do anything. She's 20 now. She does whatever she wants. But she goes to college far away, and she's a little less safe than being near us.
[07:00]
But we want them safe. That's number one. The second thing is we want the child to be successful. Now, the definition of successful is very different in every family's home. Maybe it was the success to going to trade school. Maybe it's the success to going to the military.
[07:18]
Maybe it's the success of going to college. Maybe it's just the success of moving out of the house and getting your job and supporting yourself. But that's very different for every family. And then the third thing is very specific to a local community. It's different in every single community, but we know that there's typically three main drivers, right? But the school is not perceived as safe.
[07:41]
Families aren't going to go there. So public schools and every type of school should be working on that. You can't promise anything, but you should be working on making sure that families feel safe and cared for. Public schools have not done a great job of that. And they need to they need to step that game up. Right.
[08:00]
And then success. Well, I think that's community based. And I think people should find out. And this goes to the flexibility of the model. This is why I like what charter schools and private schools can do is if I want my child successful in this, because there are jobs in our community of this, we can change the education model to fit that. I'd like public schools had that same ability.
[08:22]
You know, we're in Memphis, Tennessee, and we need a good training workforce, and we want jobs to come here. So we need to have a workforce that's trained for the jobs of the next 10 years. I'd like that local schools to all be able to adapt to that as needed, if that kind of makes sense. But it's that flexibility of adjusting to what the society and the local community wants, which is really critical. And, you know, public schools are just a little outdated on that model because they were a bureaucracy for 150 years. So I think it's just times have changed.
[08:52]
It's a competitive world. It's great. You know, monopolies aren't good to improve things. But now we need to let public schools catch up on the competition side of it.
[09:02] Justin Baeder:
One particular concern that I've been hearing a lot about lately is gifted education. And I was a principal in Seattle Public Schools. We had a large population of parents who believed their kids were gifted. And of course, we've got lots of controversy around how we define that and how we meter access to gifted programs and things like that. And often those programs are on the chopping block because they are so controversial, because they are competitive. And we often have...
[09:30]
disagreements with parents about, you know, which kids should get into those programs. Is that something that you've come across in your research?
[09:38] Brian J. Stephens:
Yeah, you know, I mean, yes, sir. You know, everybody likes to think that their child's special and has never done anything wrong. I feel like that from a society standpoint, that's a mistake. I think that it's okay to have children with flaws. Children, let them fail. Let them learn resiliency at a young age.
[09:53]
Let them struggle. I mean, the one thing that I get a little frustrated about is the parents that the child's not up to the reading level they need to be or the math level. And now this is a two-way street, right? I'd love the teachers to say, look, we love little Brian. We want Brian to do well, but...
[10:11]
If we pass Brian right now, Brian's going to hurt long term. Get the parents thinking a little bit long term. It's holding back for one year hurts. It hurts. It hurts. But long term, he's going to be successful if we do these things.
[10:23]
And I wish that everyone could communicate clear, right, on that front. Because what the parents hear, and sometimes the way it's presented or sometimes just what they hear is, my child's not good enough. My child's bad. And that's not the job. Our job is to create great adults. And that has been lost in society where, you know, social media and everything else is like, if I don't get to say that my child's an awesome person right now, people look poorly upon me.
[10:50]
Instead of going, I am worried about my long-term success of my child. And they've got to hit some flaws. They've got to hit some failure. in a safe environment so they can learn to get by. And if we don't allow the children to go through some hard steps, We're going to have problems. So in the book, one chapter I talk about is the difficult people.
[11:12]
I talk about difficult teachers and principals, but one is difficult people. You talk about, you know, lawnmower or helicopter parents. They just, I get it. They have big love for their children, but we're going to back off a little bit. They'll talk about lawnmower parents. They just mow down every obstacle in front of their kids.
[11:28]
And it's like, we've got to communicate better with them of all schools. Hey, this is not going to help the kid long term. You're still on an uphill battle, you know, because people don't want their they don't want to say their child is not gifted. Right. So to go back to the gifted argument is I wasn't anything gifted, but we had teachers. And support staff that cared and supported.
[11:48]
And it all kind of worked out, you know, long term. But short term, I looked like a boob. And thank goodness my mother was like, yeah, he is a boob. Let him try to rectify this and try to recover and become a better student down the road instead of faking it. And some children will suffer in these high level situations. courses.
[12:08]
I don't know how we fix society's desire to do that, but it's a shame that we can't have programs to help the kids that need the help the most at the lower end of the academic performance and then programs to accelerate the others. I can't. I can't fix it all, but yeah, we certainly see a lot of that.
[12:25] Justin Baeder:
And even if this is not the reality, there seems to be the perception that if you want advanced academics in some communities, the public school is not the place to get them. How do you, well, I don't know, tell me what you think about that.
[12:38] Brian J. Stephens:
Well, you know, sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not true. And part of this competition is allowing the public schools to actually showcase their good programs and their highly academic programs and all their extra services they have and their extracurricular activities. Let them present what they actually have. And if it's not right for the parent, cool. Then you can go and see what's right with these other ones, and then you can choose. But we hobble public schools, and we say you're not allowed to showcase why you're awesome.
[13:06]
You're not allowed to tell people that you have this great STEM program. And it's like, well, why not? Well, you're using taxpayer dollars to tell people. Well, so are all the other schools now.
[13:19] Justin Baeder:
Well, take us into some of those restrictions because I think people may not know what it is that they could be doing that they're not allowed to do in some jurisdictions.
[13:27] Brian J. Stephens:
Well, so first off, we talked about the standardized testing and we talked about the rules that they have a more rigid academic system they have to follow. Okay, so that's one issue that we'd like to free up, become more flexible. But it's probably not, it's not a law that they can't advertise. It's not a law that they can't recruit. They can and they should, but it is frowned upon. It is, how dare you, and we've been fighting this for years, how dare you use tax dollars to tell people that you exist?
[13:54]
Well, you give a voucher to a school and they're using those tax dollars to tell people they exist. So why don't we, if we really want school choice, let's just have all the facts present themselves. So take a political campaign. We don't say that one candidate can tell the voters why they're awesome and why they rock, and we tell the other candidate you can't talk to the voters. I mean, it's just un-American. And public schools for 150 years didn't have to do any of this because there was no rapid competition.
[14:23]
So it's hard for them. It's not something they're used to. It's a new muscle that they've got to learn. And I like it. I mean, I like for everybody to be out there putting their best foot forward. But when you start, when a school district starts to put their best foot forward, it's news.
[14:37]
How dare they? How dare they try to recruit students? How dare they talk to the parents? And it's like, well, wait a minute. I thought you liked school choice. Just let's just present the information to parents and have them make an informed decision as best as possible.
[14:49]
And it's just frowned upon by public schools to do any of this stuff. I think that that's part of the level playing field. My second blueprint is, well, first of all, you've got to commit to change. The districts have got to commit to providing better service. They actually have to do a better job serving their families. That's pretty critical.
[15:09]
You're not in a monopoly anymore. The second was actually advocate for yourselves. It's OK to let people know where you're good. Don't be ashamed of it. You know, and then we start to we start to talk about adjusting the funding model also. And that's for all schools where you can have these accelerated programs and work students from academically struggling to more academic excellence.
[15:32]
Right. As a long term roadmap. But anyway, that's that's some of the barriers that we've seen over the last 10 years is that the public schools, the board members just get beat up. when they start talking about advocating for themselves.
[15:42] Justin Baeder:
Yeah, and if you've ever received recruiting materials or seen the materials that, you know, say a new charter school that's opening up or a new private school will use to recruit, I mean, it really can, you know, put you on your heels when you consider that that's almost unheard of in public schools. The idea of recruiting, you know, advocating for your model, you know, reaching out to parents, advertising, putting up billboards, sending out flyers. I mean, are those all strategies that public schools can use or what's on the menu here?
[16:12] Brian J. Stephens:
It's strategies that public schools have to use because if you believe in yourself, if you believe in public education, you've got to let the parents know because oftentimes you said, you know, it's perceived that public schools don't have all these cool programs. But in a lot of communities, it's just not true. They do have, and the ancillary competition doesn't have those programs. They do not have a big stem program they don't have you know it's a smaller school maybe that's what you want and that's cool but they don't have the the biology labs and this and the swimming pools and all the extra things so but they they get to present their best foot forward and you can choose but meanwhile you don't even know that the awesome stem program the awesome speech pathologist that you may need the the you know the the the extracurricular activities after school the food and lunch programs Well, if I want to have all that, I need to pick that school.
[17:02]
And if the parents don't know it, all they hear is one side of the story, and they're going to keep picking that restaurant that keeps letting them know why they're awesome. Right? And so in some communities we've seen, well, here in Tennessee, we have the Achievement School District. It's gone now. They did not. Now, charter schools aren't.
[17:20]
Some charter schools here rock and roll. They're doing a great job. Those did not do a good job. And certainly you could go to a public school and they could do a poor job and you can leave. But if you're in one of these voucher programs and they're not doing a good job, wouldn't you like to know their alternatives? And that's kind of what we're suggesting that public schools do.
[17:37]
Just keep presenting your best foot forward because that perception is not truth. That's a marketing ploy. And I think we have to be worried about being overly marketed and not really looking at fundamentally which school will be the best for my child. And I think public schools have a job and a duty to present their facts so parents can make an informed decision. I guess that's kind of what we're doing, but they got to improve their teachers and staff and their culture. They got to be willing to be proud of themselves and then to work to become better.
[18:08] Justin Baeder:
It's interesting to think about the different stakeholders because often we focus on communicating with our current parents, right? The parents of our currently enrolled students. And we think about, you know, potentially bond or levy measures where we're very legally constrained in, you know, what kind of advocacy we can do for those. And often there are pretty strict rules against, you know, for example, advertising to advocate for, you know, a ballot measure to raise funds for schools as much as we might like to encourage people. We can't use school funds to do that. But you're talking about a category of communication that we do largely overlook, and that is getting the word out, perhaps to non-current families, that, hey, this is what we offer.
[18:49]
This is what's available. Right here in your local public school. Is that what you're talking about?
[18:53] Brian J. Stephens:
So we ran, we were doing some work up in New Jersey for a district and it's a really good school district. There's some good alternative school districts. Like everybody's doing pretty well in this county. Like it's kind of neat. I like that. And we ran a poll and we figured out the number one thing the parents wanted other than success and safety, because all the schools were pretty safe, was they wanted really vibrant extracurricular activities.
[19:14]
And the school district goes, we have 186. And I go, yes, but nobody knows it. Nobody knows. And I go, why don't you just let people know they have that? That's all we have to do? I go, yeah.
[19:26]
You don't even have it on your website, guys. You don't even have that you have all these activities on your website because you're so focused on the academics, you're forgetting that a family is looking more at a holistic model. So just let people know what you've got. That's all we're talking about. We're not talking about false advertising. We're not talking about anybody exaggerating it.
[19:45]
I guess that's all I'm about. I'm just talking about just presenting your best foot forward but not using massive amounts of dollars to do it. You know, most good school districts have communication teams that talk to their current families, and they're trying to do some advertising to promote, build the reputation of their schools. But it's hard work, right? And I just think that one of the rules is you've got to advocate for yourselves.
[20:09] Justin Baeder:
Absolutely. I'm thinking of one particular staff member that we had that, honestly, we should have done some advertising about. That at our school, we had a reading intervention specialist or a reading specialist, and she was fantastic. And I know a lot of parents are concerned about their kids not reading at grade level. They need extra help. They need extra support.
[20:28]
And they hear things like, oh, your kid needs smaller class sizes. Oh, your kid needs a different environment. And in a lot of cases, what the kid needs is the instruction that we can provide. But we're not saying publicly anywhere, hey, we have this expert person with a master's degree who can provide support to that, you know, to kids who are struggling with reading. We have a speech pathologist, as you said earlier.
[20:49] Brian J. Stephens:
I got I got two. It's funny. I have two examples because we before we found, you know, the San Diego Public Schools. We were young, we were starting to make money, my wife and I, you know, lawyers, we picked private school and we picked it because they had the best librarian in the state. That's what they advertised. It was amazing.
[21:06]
Well, librarian and reading and like we went because of the librarian. It was weird and she was awesome. She was a total rock star, right? Years later, I'm working for a school district in the same community, which is my community, a thousand students. And we're talking to them about what they should be talking about in the public. And the chief of comps looks and said, we don't have anything to be proud of.
[21:29]
We don't have anything to let people know about. And I was like, it broke my heart for a minute. I go, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You have. Thousands of students getting scholarships to college.
[21:38]
You have tens of thousands of students graduating doing this. You have the teacher of the year last year in the entire state. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, that is true. That is true.
[21:48]
You have five new STEM programs. Oh, I forgot about that. Right. you can get so beaten down by the rhetoric of media that you forget why you're so awesome and you forget what you've got that's so great. This great librarian here, this great speech pathologist, this great reading program. And people forget to talk about their success sometimes.
[22:09]
And so freeing public schools up to just be proud of themselves again, just be proud of yourself. You're doing a good job. You're teaching so many children. Just kind of own it, you know, and it's okay to let people know. And, you know, again, I could barely read. So, you know, I don't know if it was, I wouldn't know if I had to pick the librarian of the year.
[22:27]
If I was a little kid, I'd want, you know, the sports programs or something probably. But people can make their own decisions. But if the competition is, is advertising their great programs. They doesn't make those programs better than the local public school option. It just makes them advertise more. And I think that that's what we've got to kind of distinguish.
[22:46]
Well said.
[22:47] Justin Baeder:
So we've got to talk about our successes. We've got to talk about our programs. We've got to talk about our people. and just let people know what we have to offer. Any other big advice for schools that maybe are feeling the squeeze of competition from private or charter schools or vouchers that people are maybe keeping their kids home and getting funding for that? Any other top recommendations for schools to really just get back on people's radar as a viable option?
[23:15] Brian J. Stephens:
Yeah, I think that the school leaders and by the way, the parents can be public school leaders. The teachers are certainly school leaders or principals, superintendent, school boards. I think the first thing they have to do is they have to make a decision. They just have to choose. Are you going to accept lowering numbers, tightening of school budgets, consolidation of schools and liquidating resources? Or are you going to get in the game and start to advocate for a better model?
[23:41]
Then if you make the decision that you're actually going to advocate for yourselves, this is going to help all types of schools. I think the first thing you've got to really look at is letting people know where you rock. And then second is you've got to start to advocate for a new funding model. You know, the money that just follows per student head has nothing to do with the overall success of the child. And maybe I can tell you just one story about that is we had two school districts kind of matched up and this is before we got into this business, but I was talking to some moms and they were like, wait a minute, our school district only pays $11,000. That's what we get from say 11,000 per student, public school.
[24:19]
And the local in the city was 17,000. Seems really lopsided, right? It seems like, wow, they get so many resources. And they were in a community meeting and they said they get, you know, almost double. And their academics are just so much worse. And our school is so much better.
[24:37]
And they had this one little factoid. And I said, well, hold on, mom. Hold on, dad. Do you read to your child at night? Yes. Do you ever take them to the library?
[24:46]
Yes. Back when we saw a lot of libraries. This is a while ago. Do you ever get them a tutor if they need to? Yes. Do you ever take them on a trip?
[24:56]
Do you ever expose them to this? Yes, yes. The children in the other district have some of the biggest poverty rates in the United States in that particular school district. That child is not going to have food when they get home. Their electricity may not be on. They certainly can't afford a tutor.
[25:15]
It's just like, well, they need to pull themselves up with their bootstraps. Those kids don't have any boots. All right, so let's kind of be real with that. So that $17,000 is the entire education dollar for that student, where you...
[25:27]
have $11,000 from the school plus another $20,000 or $30,000 at other stuff that you're doing. So if our goal is to get as many kids to be helpful members of society when they graduate, sometimes it's a little lopsided. All right? Sometimes what you're pouring to the kids in the most need is more important so that they're not on the tax rolls forever. You know, they're not getting Medicare, Social Security, and entitlement or end up as criminals or whatever. They're actively...
[25:55]
contributing member of society. And so maybe what we provide should be a little differently. I could provide for our one daughter a lot more than a lot of people. She didn't need as much from the public school roles. And I think that changing that funding model is going to be a lot of work. It's going to be a lot of heavy lifting.
[26:13]
But with this opportunity around school choice, wouldn't it be interesting to every type of school got behind that. If every school said, yeah, I mean, if I'm going to take these kids that have more needs, we'd like a little kicker to provide those needs. We'd like a little extra funds to provide those needs to them. And that just makes sense. So choose to compete, choose to advocate for yourself. And then we really have to start looking at the funding models long term.
[26:36] Justin Baeder:
Yeah, and I appreciate your point there that often, you know, public schools are expected to provide the full suite of services. You know, we have to have a speech language pathologist and so on. And other schools are not necessarily obligated to do that. And if we have a funding model that takes all of that money that would have been allocated to the public school and...
[26:57]
you know, makes it follow the child to wherever they go that may not be providing those services, then yeah, that's not a level playing field. So if you could kind of wave your magic wand policy-wise and fix this, what would that look like?
[27:09] Brian J. Stephens:
Yeah, you know, it's funny, the magic wand thing. I think it's fun to talk about those subjects, but I'm a real big believer in like incremental improvements, small baby steps to get success. So instead of a magic wand, like what would I like? If the leaders of the public schools stood up and just said, we're going to compete. Instead of saying, I don't like the people that are getting school choice. It's too late.
[27:33]
Okay, the monopoly's gone. It's never going to come back. I think you should embrace it. Like, we're never going to go back to Ma Bell. You know, you're a little younger than I am, but we used to have one big phone company. Now we got all these others.
[27:44]
We're never going back to one phone company, right? We're never going back. So the genie's out of the lamp. They need to get on board with understanding that school choice is here to stay. It's never going away. So accept it and build a plan to compete instead of saying we want to end it.
[28:02]
It's not going to end. So I think that would be the first thing that I'd ask this year for everybody to embrace. And then we can start working on all those seven other things that I write about that we've got to get to.
[28:12] Justin Baeder:
Brian, if people want to learn more about your work or the work of your firm, Keisha, where are some of the best places for them to go online?
[28:20] Brian J. Stephens:
So it's funny. I had to have this written down for me. I always forget this stuff. But I do have a podcast on my own called Public Education Unfiltered. It's, you know, on Apple and everywhere that you will follow. And our Instagram is Keisha K-12.
[28:33]
C-A-I-S-S-A-K-1-2, K-12. And I think that that's probably, and my books are of course on Amazon and all those good, good, good things. So A Level Playing Field, write Elizabeth Gray, A Level Playing Field, and then you can find the book online and, you know, order lots of it. Order extra copies for your friends.
[28:51] Justin Baeder:
So the book is A Level Playing Field, Strategies to Ensure Public School Success. Brian Stevens, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Dr. I appreciate it.
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