Dr. Anael Alston: You’re Hired: The Inside Secrets to Landing Your School Leadership Job

[00:01] Justin Baeder:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.

[00:06] Announcer:

Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Baeder. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:15] Anael Alston:

I'm your host, Justin Baeder, and I'm honored to be joined today by Dr. Anna L. Alston. Dr. Alston is the superintendent of schools in the Hamilton Central School District in New York State, and he's previously served as a middle school principal and has been honored as the New York State MetLife slash NASSP Principal of the Year.

[00:35] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:37] Anael Alston:

Dr. Alston, welcome to Principal Center Radio.

[00:39] Anael Alston:

Thank you for having me, Justin. A pleasure to be here.

[00:41] Anael Alston:

Yeah, so we're here today to talk about the admin job search, getting a school leadership job. I know you've written a book on that topic, and just as importantly, In your work as a superintendent, you hire administrators. So starting from that perspective and your current role, what are some things that you look for or pay special attention to in the hiring process when you're interviewing candidates, you're screening finalists for school leadership jobs? What are some of the key things that you look for as a superintendent?

[01:12] Anael Alston:

So I'm looking at a person first. So I'm looking for a person with character and integrity. And I know that sounds maybe over simplistic, but I think that there is a, this is a strong bias I have, that there is a lack of leadership in public education. And I think that that is in part because we have gotten away from what leadership is. So I take the hiring of a leader very seriously. So I'm looking for a person who has character.

[01:46]

I'm looking for a person who has demonstrated integrity. But going beyond that, I'm looking for people who understand what leadership is, what instructional leadership is, what have they demonstrated in their area of instructional leadership. And I think that those are things that jump out at me. Now, if I wanted to get more specific, I could say I'm looking for people who can add value to teachers and know how to manage an organization. So those are some of the things I look for, how well they write, how well they speak. We tend to do business as human beings with people we know, like, and trust.

[02:29]

Are they likable? I do not do an interview process. I do a selection process, which includes in part interview, but that's kind of the 20,000-foot view of my view of leadership and hiring.

[02:43] Anael Alston:

Well, I'm so glad to hear you say that because I feel like there's been such a focus in the last decade or so on data-driven instruction that I hear people saying, okay, I need to go in and talk about myself as a person who uses data, data. And I really appreciate your starting with character, starting with the person, not their data analysis skills, but who they are as a person. And then from there, looking at what can they bring to the organization? How can they manage the organization? What value can they add to teachers? What are some red flags about character that might come up in an interview or in that selection process that you go through?

[03:23]

Because I think we've all looked over our own application materials in the course of our careers and thought, is this coming across the way I intend? As you're screening, as you're trying to catch those issues, what's a sign that you might have come across someone who doesn't rise to your standards of integrity and character?

[03:40] Anael Alston:

It usually comes out in the conversation. I think that a reasonably intelligent person can go and get their resume made up nicely. You pay someone $100 and they'll do it. But what happens is during the course of conversations when you ask questions like, what will your current supervisor say? What will the teacher say? Believe it or not, it's a small field that we're in.

[04:03]

It seems much larger than it is, but your reputation very often precedes you. And I've been around, but I also know people and generally my network will kind of give me feedback on a person. And so The main thing that I'm always looking for is how a person has performed in their prior job or during the course of their history and what kind of reputation that they have amassed, even though I do believe in redemption also. But I make it clear that I believe in redemption if I'm hiring someone who made a mistake, because it's very easy to make mistakes, as you know, Justin, if you don't have a mentor or if you just really don't know the rules of the game. And sometimes that can cost you. So red flags usually come out during the interview or selection process in terms of character.

[04:53] Anael Alston:

And I think there's another issue there that's really interesting that we might get into. I'm often contacted by people who are just in distress because they feel like they're being held back by their current supervisor. And I think we all know someone who's worked for, say, a principal or a superintendent or central office leader who maybe was not the best person to work for. Maybe it was not the best person to mentor you along and to help you get a good recommendation. So I think there are a lot of people who feel somewhat trapped, you know, that if they're going to go somewhere else, they're going to need a recommendation from this person. And yet maybe this is a person they've had conflict with or a person who is just not very professional or maybe is having, you know, going through some of their own struggles.

[05:37]

And I loved what you said about the network gap. feeding you information about someone's reputation preceding them. Because I think that's one thing that actually works to our advantage when we're in those situations where we have a supervisor who's not supportive. And in a lot of cases, especially within your district or within your area, people will know that that person is not quite the person that they need to be to have that job. Do you have any other guidance for people who maybe feel like they don't have a great mentor watching out for them or a great person who's going to give them a good reference, especially if you know that person's going to be called for a reference?

[06:15] Anael Alston:

Yes, I do. The thing with mentoring is you don't have to have a mentor in the human form. People write books so they can reach people who they can't. touch into and pour into their life directly. And so, for example, I study leadership. I love leadership.

[06:34]

I consider John Maxwell my mentor. Why? Because he writes books on leadership and growing and developing. And so while I had the opportunity to meet John Maxwell, he is my mentor, but through his books. So that's one way that you can really get premium mentorship. The other way is to volunteer within the organization.

[06:55]

So I obviously was a principal and one for a long time, 10 years. I was active in the County Principals Association. I was active in a statewide network of middle school principals. And that's how people get to know you also. And so even before I made the move from Long Island as a principal to upstate as a superintendent, I knew people in upstate New York who knew of me and knew of my work. And that, once again, speaks to reputation.

[07:22] Anael Alston:

I love it. And I think that networking is something that people don't always feel free to do. If I'm an assistant principal and there's a principal's association, I think often we tell ourselves that we have to hold back. We tell ourselves, oh, I can't possibly serve in any kind of leadership capacity at the principal's association while I'm an assistant principal. Or I can't present at the principal's conference until I'm a principal or at least an assistant principal. And looking back at kind of my own career trajectory, I was doing that kind of thing before I was really, you know, quote unquote, entitled to, you know what I mean?

[07:56]

Like I would present at the principal's conference, you know, well before being a principal. And it was actually those connections at that conference and through that network, you know, that really got me into some things. But you also mentioned something I think is really critical. And that is kind of signing up, you know, saying yes, volunteering, serving in a professional capacity and getting exposure that way. So you mentioned your principal's association. What are some good opportunities within a district, say, that you feel like are a good opportunity to network, a good opportunity to build a reputation beyond just being known to your immediate supervisor?

[08:33] Anael Alston:

Right. So if I may, I just want to go back to when you were presenting at principal conferences and you were not a principal. What you were doing was adding value. There was something you got good at, whatever that area was. and you began to present. And because those people in that room felt like, wow, this guy's presenting value.

[08:53]

Like if you weren't good, they would have said, thanks, but no thanks, don't come back. But because you added value and you were able to influence people, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. And so by you adding value, now I'm going to turn it to your question. So you add value to, by volunteering for things, there are two ways that I think put you in the A pile. Volunteer to help the principal or the assistant principal and learn master scheduling. That, in my experience, gets you in the A pile.

[09:28]

Because no principal wants to be really bothered with it because it's so time consuming. And because it's so time consuming, to have someone who knows it coming into the job is a gift. The other thing is more than being visible, I advise people to be a presence. So you can see someone who's visible, and that's nice. That's good. But when you are present, you're adding value.

[09:51]

So sports games, honor awards, volunteering for anything that's going to help the school and the organization. But we know that parents come out for our concerts, right? We know they come out for that. We know they come out for awards assemblies. The principal would be happy to have you put together the program and he probably or she probably would let you open up the thing because you're adding value to them and they see that you're willing to help them along with their job. So those are the kind of things that build up your skill set so that when you get in front of an interview committee, You can talk about what you've done and not what it is you would do in the theoretical.

[10:34] Anael Alston:

Well, and that gets into the actual format of the interview itself. I was thinking about the behavioral interview questions that we're seeing more and more districts use. Are you a fan of behavioral questions where you're asking people about things they've actually done in their experience or scenarios? What are your thoughts on that type of question?

[10:54] Anael Alston:

Right. So I have taken it a different way. And I take behavioral questions into role playing. And so you're acting out the scenario. And I like that. And my team teams, you know, the committees tend to like that because we can see how you act, how you perform under this set of circumstances, which is different than how would you.

[11:20]

Do you understand? That's the edge that we play on in my interviewing and selection processes. I think they're fine to ask, but ultimately you can prepare for what you would say because there are a limited number of questions. How would you deal with an experienced teacher who is resistant to advice, right? So how would you do that? Okay, the person can answer that question, but then if I, as the superintendent or principal interviewing an assistant principal, say, okay, that's how you do it, well, I'm the teacher and let's play it out.

[12:01]

That's a very different dynamic and everyone's watching. So now we get to see how you would respond under pressure in a real life situation as best as we can construct it.

[12:11] Anael Alston:

So you actually put candidates in the hot seat and say, all right, here's the scenario. I'm an underperforming teacher. Let's have a conversation. And do you give them some kind of specific details about that situation or do they kind of walk you through a scenario themselves?

[12:25] Anael Alston:

I'll say I'm teacher a I've been coming late and you've talked to me about it and I still coming late and let's have the conversation. Well, you called me into your office. Okay, let's have the conversation. The candidate then leads and we see how they would handle that conversation. And I would be Of course, I'm acting, but I'd be very aggressive and arrogant, and I'd see how they could handle that.

[12:55] Justin Baeder:

Nice.

[12:56] Anael Alston:

I love that. I've spoken with several principals who use sample teaching lessons, sample lessons as part of teacher interviews. And they said that every time it's made the decision for them. So I think that's a powerful parallel there to actually see people's kind of grace under pressure and the language they use and the way they come across under those circumstances. Because anybody can smile and be nice in an interview and talk about themselves. But, you know, are you going to come across credibly?

[13:29]

Are you going to come across forcefully enough without, you know, being angry or whatever? I think those are those are great things to actually see. And yet they're not part of the process in in so many places. So I think that'll be a I think that's a great strategy. So in the book, you talk about some of the inside secrets to landing your school leadership job. What would be some of the most surprising insider secrets for candidates who are ready for their next role?

[14:00]

They've gained the experience. They have the passion. They have the certification. They have the desire. They're willing to put in the work. What are some of the things that people typically miss that really make a difference?

[14:11] Anael Alston:

Well, I think that there are insiders and there are outsiders. And insiders are people who know the people in hiring because they've done the things we've just talked about for the last few minutes. They've volunteered. They've added value. Or they have a mentor. So when a superintendent calls another superintendent and says, oh, I'm sending Justin over because, you know, he has really added value for the last three years at the principals conference.

[14:37]

So that's an insider. But the outsider... not at a complete disadvantage because what tends to happen is there's three piles when we go through resume this is a secret okay a pile B policy pile which really comes down to yes no and maybe so who's in the yes pile the yes pile are people who have distinguished themselves already maybe it's a lateral move for more money or maybe they are budget cuts they have experience in doing the job already or they have a really strong credentials at some i'm a columbia man so um your columbia your nyu your stanford your you know your really solid schools that uh people said whoa they went there they must know something uh your no pile of people who just don't have uh the experience or the demonstrated uh skill sets

[15:35]

And then the maybe is, okay, they have a little bit of this or a little bit of that and, you know, let's see how it plays out after we go through our yes pile. So that's one secret that we talk about in the book and how to another, I'm parlaying this into another one, is the resume, kind of what makes an effective resume. Now you would think that after spending so much money on a master's degree or certification that, we would know how to make a strong resume, but that's just not the case. And so we talk about how resumes play such a significant factor. It's your calling card. And when I say we, I'm talking myself and Larry Aronstein, the co-author.

[16:22]

We talk about if you're getting calls for interviews, it's not your resume, right? That's all your resume. It's your calling card. I'm Justin Baeder. I'd like this job. If we call you in, your resume has done its job.

[16:33]

If you're not getting the job, it's something else. We try and help you with that. We tell you how to deal with layoffs or resignations, or in some cases, tenure denial. And so there are so many insider moves. And of course, we're telling you this just so that people who want to lead have a shot at if they're not being mentored. So they're being mentored by myself and Larry Ehrenstein, and Lord, we've hired a lot of people over a long time.

[17:02]

So that's why I always say that, you know, you might not have a direct mentor, but you certainly can pick up books and use them. And as you use these books, you get better, right? So that's how that works.

[17:13] Anael Alston:

Well, and that's got to be encouraging for people to realize in reading that that they are not the only person who's ever been in that situation. You know, I hear from a lot of people who are really discouraged, you know, that all my mentor just, you know, threw me under the bus or there are layoffs in my district and now there's no chance I'm going to get hired here for the next couple of years or whatever. I missed out on what I thought was my one shot, and now I've got to look outside of my district. You know, I hear these stories from people who really had all their eggs in one particular basket that's now been kind of taken away from them. But I think it's so encouraging to realize that, you know, thousands and thousands of people every year are in that exact circumstance and land on their feet. And there are things that you can do no matter—within reason, no matter what has happened— to get back on your feet, to get that next opening, to get your foot in the door somewhere and end up where you want to be.

[18:07] Anael Alston:

Right. And the thing, Justin, is unless you have done something very immoral, unethical, or criminal, life is a series of hills and valleys. And you can turn an opportunity of a valley and turn it into a hill. You can turn it into a promotion or a raise. But it really depends on your mindset when you're approaching it. And here's one that I try and tell the people I coach and mentor.

[18:35]

When opportunity knocks, it's too late to prepare. So you should be preparing all of the time to get better and grow yourself because you never know what happens. And, yes, budget cuts are real. And so are job losses, but you can, and I have the confidence that people can and will land on their feet.

[18:56] Anael Alston:

You know, honestly, that's one thing that people tell me they like about podcasts, whether it's this podcast or another educational leadership podcast, is it's that ongoing professional development. It's that connection with big ideas in your field, maybe just beyond the jargon or the current topics in your own district. you know, to be ready if something like that happens. And I think we tend to think we're pretty immune from layoffs in, you know, school leadership in particular. But, you know, I know a lot of districts that go through these cycles at the central office where they will hire a whole bunch of people for a whole bunch of special positions that are grant funded. And then all these people with seniority lose their positions.

[19:32]

And it does create these waves of disruption in the administrator hiring process. So, yeah, always good to be prepared, good to be Thinking about, you know, what might I want to do next? I know we have a lot of people out there listening who are very, very happy where they are, who love their jobs. But, you know, maybe in a couple of years might be looking for something else. We have a lot of people who are looking at either moving back from overseas or making a move overseas into the kind of international school community or possibly the...

[20:04]

charter school world or the private school world. And there is a huge world of opportunity out there. What are some of your thoughts on people who are making kind of a big move, not necessarily a leap up in terms of the status of the position, but just making a change that's a big change? If I've been in one type of context and then I'm moving to a very different context, what What are your thoughts on what candidates can do to prepare themselves to be able to translate that experience across very different contexts?

[20:38] Anael Alston:

Right. So I would invite people to do their homework. And what I mean by that is learn as much as you can about this new environment that you're going into. Learn as much as you can about the new culture you're going into. And because You know, if you're competent, and let's just assume that you're competent and you're going to make this big move, your success is not going to come down to competency. It's going to come down to do people know, like, and trust you.

[21:07]

And to the extent that you learn their culture and you value people and you value the people in the organization and in the community, that's going to make you more likable and people are going to want to know you and they're going to trust you because you already have the competency skill set. You'll be fine. The other thing that I would, you know, I advise people on, and I use the story of, you know, if you use it, looking at the Kentucky Derby, the owners of these horses put a lot of money into the trainer or the coach, right? We put a lot of time into these graduate degrees and put a lot of the money into the suit to go for the interview. And I would say the best candidates end up having coaches. okay, to coach them through the hiring process.

[21:53]

I will tell you, when I was making the lateral move from one district to another, there were 300 applicants for the principalship at that school.

[22:05]

Very prestigious school district. And some had been even higher assistant superintendents wanting that job. And now, of course, I had some credentials already, and that certainly helped. But My partner coached me through the process. I didn't even rely on myself because I knew it was that competitive. And so having a coach, I would say, helps you tremendously because not only does a coach have a network of people who they can tap into, but they're guiding you through something they've been through before.

[22:42]

So let's say it costs you $400 to hire a coach and you want to make the next move. I say that's a great investment, but it's an investment in you, in you, not on you. It's in you. And so those are the kinds of things I tell people who are going to make a big move.

[22:58] Anael Alston:

So to recap some of those, do your homework, find a mentor, but also find a coach. And even if your mentor is virtual through a book that you're reading, find a mentor and then get that coaching and invest in yourself.

[23:12] Anael Alston:

Absolutely. Add value like you did, like I do. Add value to people and organizations. And, you know, it's a door opener. And then people will push you through the door. They'll say, we want you here.

[23:27]

And I'm sure just by you doing this podcast, people are like, wow, he's adding value to all these people. Why don't you come work for us? I already know that's probably the scenario because you're adding value. And I appreciate it because I listened.

[23:40] Anael Alston:

Well, thanks very much. And thanks very much for joining me today. We will link up the book. So you have a book that people can purchase instantly and download called You're Hired, The Inside Secrets to Landing Your School Leadership Job. We'll put that in the show notes on our website at principalcenter.com.

[24:00]

And if people want to find you, connect with you online, on Twitter and so forth, where can they best do that?

[24:06] Anael Alston:

I am on Twitter at DRAAlston at Twitter. So it's at Dr. Alston, D-R-A Alston. And I'm on Facebook at Dr. Anna L. Alston, my full name spelled out.

[24:21]

That's my page. And so I have a blog for my school district website where I put some, it's specific to this community, and that's on the Hamilton Central School District website. It's called Education Matters with Dr. A., And that's how I'm out there. I am out there.

[24:41]

And we're up to about 13,000 people on Twitter following me. So we'd love to have more. I put resources out all of the time. any areas of leadership, education, and technology. Fabulous. I love it.

[24:54]

I am in love with what I do.

[24:56] Anael Alston:

Absolutely. And I know superintendents are incredibly busy, but I know a number who regularly blog and who share things on Twitter. And back to the idea of doing your homework. I think that's a tremendous research resource for people who are looking to make a move. You know, what is the instructional leader of this district? What is the superintendent talking about?

[25:16]

What are they blogging about? What are their priorities? What's the language they use? So that's a great resource for anyone who's out there. Read superintendent blogs, read superintendent tweets, and you'll get that perspective.

[25:28] Anael Alston:

Right. And what I do is I look at very accomplished superintendents. I look at superintendents who have accomplished things that I want to accomplish. In other words, people further down the road. And then I work with and study under very accomplished leaders in the field of leadership. And so there's always someone further down the road than you.

[25:49]

who you can tap into either their books or their trainings or their workshops. I think it helps, and I think it's imperative if you want to grow and be impactful and add value.

[25:59] Anael Alston:

Well, Dr. Elston, I want to thank you for bringing so much value to our listeners today. It has been a blast to speak with you, and I want to just thank you again.

[26:07] Anael Alston:

Thank you so much, and best wishes to you, my friend.

[26:11] Justin Baeder:

And now, Justin Baeder on high-performance instructional leadership.

[26:16] Anael Alston:

So high-performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation about the job search with Dr. N.L. Alston? I really appreciated his comments on adding value and on finding a mentor through a book and on finding coaching. And as you mentioned, most districts are going to ask you a fairly predictable set of interview questions.

[26:37]

And those that are especially savvy about this, maybe your district just got the idea from this episode to actually have candidates go through a scenario and demonstrate their leadership skills, demonstrate their coaching skills and their supervision skills and so forth. The main thing that you need to do to be prepared for that is to practice. If you show up with your professional experience and have not really thought about that professional experience, that experience is not going to have the impact that it could and should. So if I can implore you to do one thing with the advice that you've heard today, it is to use it to prepare. Use it to practice. if you would like a set of interview questions that you can work from.

[27:24]

Now, of course, any district can ask any questions at any time, but I've prepared a pretty comprehensive list of interview questions that you can download at principalscenter.com slash interview. And if you do a couple of things, first of all, if you write out your kind of bullet point answers to each of those questions, and then second, and much more critically, If you actually go through a mock interview, you can do it by yourself. Just record yourself on your phone. You can do it with a colleague who's an educator, ideally someone who has hired principals before. But whatever you do, actually go through a real-timed practice session.

[28:02]

Far and away, that will do more to prepare you for your interview experience. in real life than anything else you could do. There's no substitute for actually going through a practice interview. You don't want to make your real interview your first run through. So practice, practice, practice. And if you're interested in working with me as a coach, I do take on a number of Ascend private coaching clients and we do video interviews over Skype in that program.

[28:30]

So we sit down and we do a mock interview. We go through a set of questions. We have a specific amount of time. And then I provide annotated, timestamped feedback on that video. So if you're interested in that, you can check that out at principalcenter.com slash ascend.

[28:46]

And of course, that includes support for the other phases of the application and hiring process as well. But don't miss out on those interview questions. Those are a free resource. You can go to principalcenter.com slash interview to download those right now.

[28:59] Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.