[00:01] SPEAKER_02:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center, and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the show my good friend, Jennifer Abrams. Jen is a leading consultant to the education, healthcare, and nonprofit sector, and the author of four books... And she is the person that I repeatedly refer people to whenever they are telling me, hey, I need help having a hard conversation. I need help getting people to move, getting people to change, getting people to take action.
[00:49] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:51] SPEAKER_01:
Jennifer, I want to welcome you to this show and just share how excited I am to talk about changing schools, changing the way that we do things in organizations. So, welcome back.
[01:00] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
[01:03] SPEAKER_01:
So, let's jump right in to Swimming in the Deep End. You say there are four foundational skills for leading successful school initiatives. What are they and why do they matter?
[01:13] SPEAKER_00:
So, there are four foundational skills. I wanted to title this book Foundational skills for aspiring school leaders or for emerging school leaders or for, you know, people who are working with new leaders, and they were like, no, it's about school change. It's about beyond school change. So these are four foundational skills that I think in working with adults are really important. If you're going to try to move a school forward or move a team or you're the head of third grade or you're the department head, the first skill...
[01:47]
is think before you speak. It seems really funny, but if you've got something to say, have you thought through what you'd like to say before you say it? Okay? Now, people go, what? That seems so silly. Or they say, I have no time to actually do that.
[02:07]
In fact, I wasn't told that I have time to think. I just have to implement. And I say, absolutely not. You are the person who is delivering the message. You know your people. How might you shape and craft that so that you can actually be heard?
[02:25]
Okay? And there's a lot to that, about data and story and who needed to be on board if there was a decision to be made and thinking about that. Second skill is, preempting resistance through that first skill. And it's about becoming allocentric. Allocentric is other-focused. Where might a person, immediately upon hearing this message, be freaked out, be frustrated, be angry, and how can we look at that?
[02:59]
And I provide a bunch of different, kind of, kaleidoscope ways of shaping that kind of preempting. And then, If they get angry at you, skill three, responding to the resistance in a humane way, so that you don't yell at them, don't shoot the messenger, it's not my problem, just be an adult, get on it, because that's not going to be helpful. So, we have some pieces that kind of align with my hard conversations work. And four, how do you not get an ulcer or a headache from having to deal with all of this? How do you manage yourself? So those are the four foundational skills.
[03:36]
I mean, it isn't a Harvard executive ed course in theories of action of change. It is not a PhD in change management. But it is, gosh darn it, you've got to start thinking from the perspective of the adults if you're going to move forward. And a lot of the folks that I work with I know your previous work on having hard conversations and the workshops and the consulting that you do on
[04:10] SPEAKER_01:
You know, sometimes those are just about getting people to correctly or consistently do the things that they're already expected to do. You know, I talk with a lot of administrators who say, oh, I need to have a hard conversation with this teacher who's not planning, or they're coming late, or, you know, we need to have that conversation. I know you provide a lot of tools in those books for planning those conversations and kind of, as you said, In this book, Thinking Before You Speak, but if we think about the organizational level, and we think about not getting people to just do their existing job and keep doing what we've been doing as a school, but actually change something, whether that is a seemingly technical change or whether it's a more philosophical and culture impacting change, there's a lot there that has to happen on the human side. And one of the things that I was hearing in your description there was the idea of empathy and using empathy to not only be empathetic, but to also anticipate resistance.
[05:09] SPEAKER_00:
I think in the Think Before You Speak section, and I was just sort of shaping a two-day workshop that I'm doing on this, one of them is to really determine Where are we in this challenge, and can we shape it and frame it as the polarity that it probably really is? So, I was reading an article about this in terms of tradition and transformation. A polarity is we're seesawing, we're not tipping somebody off the seesaw, But some people will say, oh my gosh, this is all about transformation. What happened to the past? What happened to the consistency? What happened to where we've been?
[05:50]
Why is that so bad? And the answer isn't that we are going to absolutely get rid of everything that we've done. It's about moving us forward and keeping what has been okay, and how does that kind of movement happen without what I call tipping the seesaw. So that's about thinking before you speak. Can you not just go, we're moving forward, too bad about the past, you know what I mean? Adam Grant, who's the professor at UPenn, talks a lot about the idea of when there's a change that's going to take place, absolutely speak to what's not going to change.
[06:30]
And how important that is. And I think that there is some language that you can use in that particular way. That's an empathic frame. Then, I giggle because it doesn't matter what the change is. You're gonna go to blended learning, you're gonna go to moving more towards social-emotional learning. Whatever you're trying to do, somebody is gonna ask you, can you give me more information about that?
[06:55]
What if I don't know how to do it? Who was involved in that decision? Uh, how is this connected to the way we've been doing things? What happens if we fail? You know, there are basically, like, 16 questions, regardless of what the change is, that people will ask. And the answer is, do you have answers to them?
[07:17]
And can we not be angry at human beings for asking the same questions that you normally would do if it was you? So, it's about getting empathic and then really nuancing that. So I look at some other models of how might you go to, for example, the math and science departments might look at things a little differently than the English department looks at it. Or the kindergarten might have a dilemma versus the board. Or somebody who's, you know, an instructional assistant might look at it differently than a principal. So we've got to take field trips to everybody's life.
[07:57]
And I've got people... I don't know.
[08:24]
So can we take a few hours to look at it from somebody else's point of view?
[08:27] SPEAKER_01:
I'm reminded of Robert Evans' excellent book, The Human Side of School Change, which I read probably 15 years ago. And one of the chapters that really had an impact on me, because it was outside of my experience, was thinking about the needs of late-career teachers. And often in many schools, late-career teachers are kind of the backbone of the profession, right? They're the people who have been there, Yeah.
[09:12]
life stage issues that come up, and as you said, we need to take a field trip to their life and think, okay, what is it like, you know, I might be, and as a new principal, I was in my mid-twenties, and I had all the time in the world to just focus on whatever career things I wanted to, and I think we kind of idolize that, like, I'm gonna go all in, I'm gonna work eight million hours a week, and, you know, anybody who doesn't want to do that or, you know, is unwilling to do that just doesn't care about kids. And the human side of school change made me stop and say, wait a minute, there are a lot of people who are parents to teenagers or who are spending 15 hours a week taking their ailing parents to doctor's appointments. You know, it's not that there is just a single profile of an educator, and a good educator does what I want, and here's what I want, this is my initiative, so let's run with it.
[10:02]
When we move fast and break things, sometimes we break people, and sometimes the people we break are ourselves, I feel like, so...
[10:08] SPEAKER_00:
Exactly. So, you know that I love the generational work that I do, and the multi-generational workplace piece, and I... I think that it's about where we are developmentally, where we are in our lives, but do you know, if you look at...
[10:25]
I use an identity circle in, um, the workshops that I do, and I just basically say, what's it gonna, you know, who are you working with? How many are in their first couple years? How many are two years or three years away from retirement? Where are your people, and what is the bandwidth that they have...
[10:47]
And, what do you think? For example, this happened last week. A friend of mine, uh, was sharing this story that, you know, uh, we're gonna be moving towards, you know, such and such, and you've gotta take three days in the middle of the summer to go to a workshop. It's required, okay? Now, this woman teaches one period. Now, that's, in and of itself, a fascinating dynamic, because she wants to keep her foot in it, but she's got kids in elementary school, and now you've just told her that the change that she needs to do has to happen, In the summer.
[11:18]
And, you know, is this enough time? Does she feel like it's worth it? She only works one hour anyways. It's that idea of, could we have anticipated this? You know, who are we working with? And what might the modifications need to be?
[11:33]
The later, more veteran and seasoned teachers really might need a different conversation about how is this not devaluing their expertise? What is possible? They certainly want what's best for kids. They have been in it. They've seen things come and go and come and go. But what is really the bottom line and how can we value what they've got to do and modify in a way that works?
[12:04]
They're not gonna spend 20 million hours a day. They are taking their ailing mother to get prescriptions. Believe me, I understand that story. So, how can you do that? And does anybody consider this is what I think I'm really putting in as a foundational skill. So, Robert Evans, his stuff has been, you know, pivotal.
[12:29]
It's foundational work. So, yeah, I completely relate to it.
[12:32] SPEAKER_01:
It's interesting to me that these are issues that we don't often think about when we're planning. Like, in our profession, we seem to love documents for planning. Like, we need some data, and we need some research, and then we need to use that data and research to make a plan, and that plan needs to be extremely long and detailed, and then we need to throw a whole bunch of money at implementing it. But so far, I'm pretty sure everything we've talked about so far is free and does not require making any documents, right? This is about thinking, this is empathy,
[13:01] SPEAKER_00:
It's about using your mind and your heart. And I've got people that are like, God, this allocentrism is exhausting. We are not here. This is an interesting dynamic. It is about the kids, Justin. It is not about the adults.
[13:15]
Everything that you're mentioning to me is about the adults. We need to focus on what's right for students. And I say, I don't think that anybody who's really working in education, you know, is not about really supporting the development and academically and emotionally and psychologically and socially of children. I think that's the point. And it's the adults that are doing it. We exist, too.
[13:40]
So let's go with that polarity. Can it be about the students? And can we recognize the needs of the adults? And I've got people that are like, it's not about them, they're too selfish, why are we focusing on the adults? I stand in this book and say, if we can't care for the adults, we're never going to get there. Now, am I tipping the seesaw in this book more on the adult side and not on the instruction in the classroom side?
[14:08]
The answer is yes. That's the point of this text. Do we need both? You bet. How can we do it? But I stand strongly on...
[14:16]
This is a piece we don't spend enough time on, and can we just read through it, see if any of this makes sense, so that our interactions don't step in it every time, because we've just not cared to know who we're talking to. And I think that's my coaching that's coming through, the 16 years as a new teacher coach. I can't help you move forward if I don't know who you are. And then starting to work with new administrators, they're like, what? These adults are so what? You know, and I'm like, yes, welcome to, welcome to growing the adults as well as the students.
[14:55]
So that's really the key.
[14:56] SPEAKER_01:
And as leaders, I mean, that's, that's our primary mechanism, right? That's how we grow the students is through growing the adults and organizing the work of adults.
[15:04] SPEAKER_00:
I completely agree with that. And I don't know when people are new, hence the book Foundational Skills, they realize that growing the adults is their primary focus. We have to develop and support those that are going to support the kids. And people are like, I didn't get into the business to do that. I thought I was just here to kind of move stuff forward for kids. I'm like, welcome to the work.
[15:27] SPEAKER_01:
And I think we also have to think in terms of changing people, in terms of changing who is on our staff. And sometimes if we have that single-minded focus of, you know, being kind of a taskmaster and saying, you know, whatever it takes for kids, this is all about the kids, it's not about you. Well, people always have a fire escape if... And if we look at generations, again...
[16:13] SPEAKER_00:
If we look at Gen Y, or we look at the new group, Gen Z, that's gonna be coming in in a few years, their interest is not just this job, But it's, how can I develop myself to move to the next job? Development of the person that's in our schools educating is going to be pivotal to them even thinking it's a purposeful endeavor. They're going to want to grow themselves and grow kids. And so, you can't dismiss this. It's a part of what they're going to be asking for when they interview. Yeah.
[16:45] SPEAKER_01:
Let's talk about that some more, because I think this is something that's easily lost on us from a generational perspective, that, you know, we know, we've always known that the first couple of years of teaching are very difficult, people need to get better very quickly, or they're probably going to quit, burn out, or, you know, need to find something else to do. So, we understand that learning curve, but I think there's also... I was talking with somebody else about this recently. I think there's also a motivational role to improving, that people need to feel like they are getting better.
[17:14]
People need to see how they're getting better, or they're going to say, you know what? This is too much work for me to just be, you know, running the hamster wheel for 20 more years at this. I'm out of here. And if people feel like they're stagnating, like, I don't know that that has traditionally been a complaint of the teaching profession, but I think what I'm hearing you saying is it's going to be if we're not attuned to this.
[17:37] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, I would agree with that. I would say that, you know, I giggle in certain moments where people will come up to me and say, I want to be you. And I'll say, well, how long have you been teaching? And they'll say, well, I just got my credential two months ago. You know what I mean? Like, and I say, well, how about you teach for a year?
[17:53]
You know, I mean, it's that kind of thing. But they want to see that they're going to develop. And they need to have opportunities that indicate to them they're making an impact and they're growing themselves and... They then, this is sort of why I wrote this book, my new teachers have now signed up to be leaders.
[18:17]
And they're like, okay, I'm on board. And they're on board fast. Like, oh, can I be the grade-level lead? Oh, can I lead the, uh, can I be a coordinator? Oh, can I be a mentor? Oh, can I be the department head?
[18:28]
And they're doing it pretty swiftly because they were told they could be anything they want to be. And now they're... They're anything they can be. And there's a new set of skills.
[18:40]
And so, I just don't think that we have ever really been in the business of, in an interview, being on the back end of the interview. We're interviewing a new second grade teacher, but the teacher's saying, what can I learn at your school? What is the professional learning that's gonna happen when I get there? What opportunities am I gonna have? And I think...
[19:02]
Cynically, some of us have been thinking, oh my gosh, they want to go to a workshop? We, all we wanted to do was not go to a workshop. You know, if we could get, if those workshops are terrible, you know, like, oh my gosh, if I have to go back and sit at the district office, you know, and they're saying, we don't want a terrible, you know, professional learning opportunity, but we want to be growing and teaming and working together to make change for the sake of, you know, kids. So...
[19:30]
The human identity of both the kid and the adult are going to have to be a part of this. And then there's, that goes back to the think before you speak, as you put yourself into this change, how many moments are we going to have for reflecting and celebrating and moving our brains into seeing that we have made an impact and how can we move forward? And I just spoke with a group who, they said, oh, yeah, we move fast, we never celebrate or reflect. We don't have time for that. And I'm like, that's gonna end up not being helpful if you've got some younger teachers who are really gonna want
[20:09] SPEAKER_01:
to work together and see and celebrate, so... And I think not even just for younger teachers, but I'm seeing this across generations, and the very first teacher I hired as a principal was a mid-career teacher, and I said, you know, why do you, you know, why do you want to work here? Tell us, why do you want to make this move? She had been in private schools previously, and she said...
[20:28]
Really, it's all about the professional development. I just don't have the opportunity to get good professional development where I am, and I know I will get that here, and I know we'll have amazing colleagues to learn with and learn from. And that was one of the easiest and best hires we ever made, because that was there. But at the same time, we very well could have shut that down the moment she got hired and said, okay, you're gonna do what you're told and implement these initiatives. And, you know, that learning...
[20:57]
and that understanding what she was learning really was critical for, you know, for making the most of her leadership, you know, and allowing that to shape our school initiatives. So, just to kind of wrap things up with these foundational skills for leading successful school initiatives, in the final chapter, you talk about managing yourself. What are some of the... You know, like, I feel like we've all heard that we need to drink plenty of water and get eight hours of sleep a night, and none of us get eight hours of sleep a night, so forget that.
[21:23]
But what's the relationship there between managing ourselves and managing the initiative or the change that we're trying to see through?
[21:30] SPEAKER_00:
I do two-fold piece. Like, I... It's so funny. I, you know, there are 14 things, and yes, it's about sleep, but it's about, you know, do you have a gratitude practice and all that?
[21:40]
And I look at it, and I think to myself, And I say to the people in the workshops, please do not think you have to do all 14 things on this list. You're gonna feel like a loser, and nobody can do that. But I really do think you have to take care of yourself, self and school, right? The polarity is there. The other piece that I do in the managing yourself, it's more immediate. It's when this stuff happens.
[22:06]
And you get negative feedback. How do you respond to the feedback? Do you take in the right stuff? Do you let the other stuff go? How do you anticipate, uh, resistance in your body? And how do you plan for that?
[22:20]
So there's some non-verbal stuff. There's some quick learned optimism stuff. I really follow, uh, Martin Seligman. and think about, like, in a terrible moment, what's my immediate kind of psych myself back into it kind of stuff. So there's some immediate kind of responses, and then there's just how do you manage yourself long-term. And it's a tricky thing that I haven't kind of, you know, I certainly don't do all 14 things, and I have to keep psyching myself into certain stuff when bad stuff happens.
[22:51]
So I give as many tips as I possibly can. It's just some tips about how to make sure that you don't You know that... There was an older thing that I remember. Weebles wobble, but they never fall down.
[23:03]
Uh, how can we stay, kind of... Because we're always going to be unbalanced. How can we balance ourselves in the moment, and then how can we balance ourselves long-term?
[23:12] SPEAKER_01:
And it's like, we're going to react, right? When someone comes in and slams the door and says, look, this change initiative is just, you know, like, they throw it at us. We're going to react, right? Like, it's a law of physics, and it's a law of psychology. Like, we can't just, like, not react. Obviously, we are largely hired in this profession for our ability to react appropriately and in a measured way.
[23:35]
Um, or we keep our jobs by doing that. But the inner reaction and the, you know, the anticipating that and the processing of that seems like something that no strategic plan is ever going to tell us to think about, right? We're not going to have that in the Word document.
[23:51] SPEAKER_00:
And so there are many of us that are working on resilience. Mine is just a piece of the work. And most of the time, it's that idea of we have to, in the moment, figure out what do we need to do, and I've got a couple tips in the book that I'm not sharing, that we're gonna, of just how do you balance yourself in that moment, because it's a marathon, and if we're in the deep end, you know, I suppose you could go to the side and hold on to the side of the pool, or you could try to swim yourself back to the shallow end, but it's, I don't know, some floaty tips to keep yourself when you're just too tired, is what I have in there, so...
[24:28] SPEAKER_01:
So the book is Swimming in the Deep End for Foundational Skills for Leading Successful School Initiatives. And Jen, I know there's just a slight possibility that some districts may need assistance in navigating change and navigating hard conversations. So if people want to get in touch with you, talk about working together, where's the best place for them to find you online?
[24:49] SPEAKER_00:
They can find me at my website, which is JenniferAbrams.com and Jennifer at JenniferAbrams.com. And I will respond. I'm that kind of person.
[24:59] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Jen, thanks so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio.
[25:01] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you.
[25:03] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at PrincipalCenter.com slash radio.
