[00:01] SPEAKER_01:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, bringing you the best in professional practice.
[00:06] Announcer:
Here's your host, director of the Principal Center and champion of high-performance instructional leadership, Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:15] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and my guest today is Kathy Glass. Kathy is a curriculum and instruction consultant to school districts across the U.S. and the author of seven books on a variety of topics.
[00:27] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:29] SPEAKER_00:
Kathy, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:32] SPEAKER_02:
Thank you so much for having me.
[00:33] SPEAKER_00:
So Kathy, you work with schools and districts, and you also write about mapping units to standards and kind of designing units backwards with standards in mind. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do and how that process works.
[00:47] SPEAKER_02:
Thanks, Justin. I'm really all about... helping teachers to really understand what their unit is all about and then to design really engaging lessons with sound instructional strategies that make sense tied to their units. I find that a lot of times teachers have some units and maybe they haven't built them themselves or they've been given them and they want to personalize them.
[01:08]
And I want to make sure that they have the tools to fish, if you will. So I want to make sure that they know all the different components of designing a rigorous unit of instruction and then using what they have built to actually design those engaging lessons. So I take them through a process that's a backward planning process that's very user-friendly. And when I do that kind of work, it's usually an institute where I really go deep, and then I continue to work with them in coaching. So they develop this really strong unit. And some of it could be lessons they've borrowed, they've used before, they've found.
[01:43]
But ultimately, I want them to really understand the nuts and bolts and the theory and the actually how to do it and work really hard at teaching what they want to teach and interpret the standards in a way that resonates with them so they're passionate about what it is that they teach.
[02:00] SPEAKER_00:
I think about my own kind of experience as a teacher looking for resources, looking for ideas. I would always start a unit with a clear picture of what that unit was about, but then as that unit would go along, as a new teacher not really familiar with the ins and outs of my curriculum and you know, not fully settled on what I needed to include. I mean, it was almost like I w I would start with a base, you know, like, like with Legos, you have a little, little plastic base and you kind of dig through the bin and pull something out and stick it on top of what's already there. And then the next day's lesson, you're planning, you dig through the bin, pull out a Lego, stick it on top of what's already there. And it's not that kind of design process. It just kind of emerges.
[02:40]
And often when I think when we teach that way, We end up with something other than what we set out to accomplish, and it's not a great fit with the standards. So you're talking about kind of from the beginning, looking at the standards, looking at the big goals for the unit and designing from the ground up a plan to achieve that with our students.
[02:59] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely, and I think new teachers, that is true. I found myself a victim of that as well, where you're just trying to keep ahead and doing that Lego approach. I like that. I think what happens is, too, is that as teachers, we're given textbooks or material or standards, and then we look at it and say, oh my gosh, this is so much content that I need to cover. I'm teaching American history and I gotta cover you know that the Patriots and you know the different groups of people the different individuals all the dates associated with it the Stamp Act then tolerable act the quartering act it in you just get mired in the in the different aspects of that unit that is the surface knowledge in the factual base And then you end up teaching to those topics. Well, in a backward planning or in a rigorous unit of instruction where you really want to teach more thoroughly and more intellectually and foster more critical thinking and transference, you really need to go beyond those surface knowledge and facts as the foundational piece to say, well, what about it?
[03:58]
What are the concepts included in that? What do I really want to impart to my students? Because they may or may not remember those facts, but you want them to carry with them more information and more understanding and something much deeper. And the backward planning does that, but it's hard and it does take a lot of time. And some teachers say, oh, I know what it is in theory. They'll say, oh, I've done backward planning.
[04:21]
And I'd like to take them through this process so they see what might be missing or what's validating in what they're doing or how they might extend what they're doing.
[04:28] SPEAKER_00:
And we start with standards, obviously. But then where do we go from there? Because I think the temptation is to jump right to activities and assignments. Is there any place that you take people first before they get into the specific lessons between there and the standards?
[04:43] SPEAKER_02:
Right. Yes. And Wiggins and McTighe talk a lot about this, of course, in their wonderful work that they do. What I do is after we group standards, and again, it could be an interdisciplinary unit where they're really grouping standards from different content areas, and I certainly go to places and states where they haven't adopted the Common Core. So they need to take whatever standards it is that they are working with and look at them critically and develop these knowledge items. And that's what I was talking about with that factual surface knowledge information that a lot of teachers might stop there.
[05:17]
So for instance, if you're teaching the Holocaust, you might say, oh, I want students to know about concentration camps or allied and access powers or certain terms like genocide or dictatorship. And I want them to know about events like the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising or Kristallnacht. But beyond that, what we really want to do is, as I mentioned before, is foster that critical thinking and have kids make connections and transference and they really can't do that unless a teacher has choreographed in advance and has been proactive to design this unit to say I want them to go to a higher level and for instance in the example I I just gave you about those kinds of knowledge items after you group standards and identify those knowledge items then you say what do I want kids to really understand and those essential understandings are not easy at all to write in fact I say to teachers
[06:07]
Identifying knowledge items may take a lot of work, especially if you don't know the content area. So if you don't know the content area and you're new to early man and hominid groups or you're new to how to write an argumentation, you're going to spend a lot of time developing those knowledge items and what you want students to know. But then you got to give the why. And why is this conceptually sound and where am I headed? So for instance, if I were doing that Holocaust unit, I might look at those standards. And see, this is where this professionalism comes into play and the adults sit together.
[06:40]
It's wonderful if they can brainstorm. And when I work in districts that are tiny, I might pull in other surrounding districts to help them or I'll certainly help them as well. But it's nice to really work together and say, well, what do we want from that? So one that I use a lot when I actually taught the Holocaust was this essential understanding. leads to unspeakable actions, which can desensitize a community and cause people to act immorally.
[07:07] SPEAKER_00:
So you've got a big idea there. But I have to ask, why do you go to the knowledge items first? Because I think that's a little bit counterintuitive for us. We would think, okay, standards first, and then big ideas or through lines or essential understandings coming immediately after standards. But you're saying identify the knowledge items first before we develop the essential understandings?
[07:27] SPEAKER_02:
Very good question. I think it really depends on how comfortable you are with the content. I work in all different groups, so sometimes I'm working with a group that's rather small. It could be a department or a grade-level team or a PLC, but I could be working in a whole district where I got a whole lot of folks out there, over 100 or more. So therefore, it depends on the group and if you know the content area. So if it's a huge group of 100 or 200, I do need to sequence it in a certain way.
[07:58]
But if it's a more manageable group and they're more comfortable with the content, they can do essential understandings. And I also find it's how your mind works. Some people want the nitty-gritty. You've got to feel comfortable with their content because if you don't know the content to develop those knowledge items, you can't do an essential understanding because an essential understanding is an outgrowth. um, of those knowledge items. You know, it's, it's the higher, more conceptual principles involved.
[08:23]
So it depends on the size of the group, the comfort level with the content area. And I always differentiate for every group I work with. So you, it's hard and fast rule isn't, you have to do knowledge than essential understandings. Um, I, I, I find out what the group is all about first and then I determine it. But typically it's, you got to know your content first. So we do knowledge and then your essential understandings.
[08:47] SPEAKER_00:
And then where do you go from there? Do you get more specific kind of into the lesson level?
[08:51] SPEAKER_02:
Well, before you get into the lesson level, you still have some more work to do to really choreograph this sound unit. So the next thing is from the essential understandings, we craft some unit and lesson guiding questions. And I divide those guiding questions into two camps. And I think I started doing this about a decade ago because I found that when folks were using guiding questions or when you even look at a textbook, there were all these questions that really were different kinds of questions. Some were very basic. You know, what is characterization?
[09:21]
But then some were very basic. high level, which is how does a character's actions impact the plot. So you really need to identify the two different levels of questions. So the way that I work it is that I have them craft a unit guiding question that is very succinct, that's related to the essential understanding, but it doesn't give it all away. For instance, That intolerance essential understanding that I shared with you, it's an adult language. So as an adult, I know that that's where I'm headed and I want kids to understand that statement.
[09:55]
However, I don't want to give kids the answer to it. I want them to discover that for themselves. So some people, what they do is they just put a question word in front of the essential understanding and they call it a day. But that's not really the intent. The intent is to have a unit guiding question be leading, but ultimately you want to get to that essential understanding. For instance, if I had a unit guiding question that says, how does intolerance affect communities?
[10:21]
That's general. Like an essential understanding, that can transfer because if you have that question, how does intolerance affect communities, boy, oh, boy, you could do that in all different units of study in a lot of different subject matter and grades. But it's the lesson-guiding questions where you drill down and get very specific to your content. So if it's that same essential understanding about intolerance, And that unit guiding question, lesson guiding questions, and I usually have them chunk it according to what their lessons might be, if it's a 43-minute period or a block period. But an example would be, why did people follow Hitler? What were concentration camps?
[11:03]
Why did the Third Reich enact the final solution? So the lesson guiding questions are those drill-down specific questions where you design activities, teach skills around, and it's from those series of lesson guiding questions that kids can answer the unit guiding question, ultimately leading to what you had intended them to discover from the essential understanding. So it's kind of a scaffolded approach, if you will.
[11:29] SPEAKER_00:
So then at what point are you looking at assessment? Because this all makes sense so far, but I'm wondering, is assessment something that you add on after things are already structured a bit? Or do you kind of begin with assessment in mind? Or is it actually more effective to bring in assessment later in the design process?
[11:47] SPEAKER_02:
Well, there's so many different kinds of assessments. As I'm sure you know, there's the pre-assessment, self-assessment, which is not a lot of press, but very, very important. Formative assessment, summative assessment. So there's all different kinds. And as I mentioned before, when you asked me that question, do you have to start with knowledge and then go to essential understandings, etc. ?
[12:06]
you can toggle back and forth among these different components. Maybe you're having trouble coming up with an idea for an essential understanding because I will say that is a wholeheartedly intellectual exercise because you have to really get inside your content, figure out what you want kids to understand, and it's not always in the standards for you. You have to determine it yourself. So when you get to assessments, yes, you're going to need to know up front while you're doing all of this work what the summative assessments are, but you might have ideas along the way. When you're crafting these unit and lesson guiding questions, you might say, wow, I've done this unit before and I have a really great simulation I want kids to do when they have to tackle whatever it is they're doing. So if you know a simulation is something that has worked well and really meets the needs of these questions and has kids understand it then go ahead and jot that down but it's these are these are the more on the beginning pieces of developing a unit this is when you're really looking at your overarching lesson goals and then what you do for learning goals and then what you do from there is develop your lessons so you can't develop your lessons until you have all these learning goals in place so certainly assessments will come into play the formative ones when you're designing lessons
[13:26]
But upfront, you are going to do your summative assessment.
[13:29] SPEAKER_00:
How important do you feel that it is for departments or grade level teams, whenever multiple teachers are teaching the same subject, to do this planning together? Because I think in our profession, we have definitely a norm of collaboration, but we also have very strong norms of autonomy that kind of work against that culture of collaboration. Do you ask people to agree when they're going to be teaching the same thing? What do you recommend that we do as school leaders?
[13:56] SPEAKER_02:
Well, I believe wholeheartedly in creativity and independence in a certain regard. And by that, I mean that I don't want to be always told exactly how to teach a particular lesson and what instructional strategies I'm going to use. But by the same token, when teachers work together and brainstorm and develop these learning goals that I'm talking about in this backward planning, It's really exciting and it's really invigorating to see what happens when they work together and develop these essential understandings and unit and lesson guiding questions and also skills. We didn't talk about that. They have to make sure that they are targeting certain skills. Do they want kids to analyze or synthesize text or compare information?
[14:40]
Once you identify that, And have these learning goals up front from what are called KUDs. K is what I want students to know. U is what I want students to understand. And D is what I want students to do. Along with your guiding questions. Once you have that, then when you drill down and even your summative assessments and then going further into your lessons.
[15:03]
Teachers have different ways that they want to teach, and they might even have different complex texts that they want to use. They have different personalities. So I think it's important that we tap into their own skills and passions and expertise. And also, you know, if you've read Michael Follin's book on professional capital, I mean, it talks about that social capital working together as a team. So that human capital is important, too, and what I do myself and what my job responsibilities are. But I think it all works together.
[15:36]
And, of course, we rely on those who have more expertise, who are maybe older, they're more veteran, they've been in the business. So you do want to work together, but you don't want to squelch some kind of individuality as well. And we should be learning from each other. That's what's really exciting about this work, too, is we're sharing.
[15:54] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, we we feel an obligation as leaders to get people on the same page. And, you know, we know parents talk if there are three sections of, you know, of seventh grade social studies. We don't want those to be vastly different curriculum. So I like what you're saying about having those those kind of big, big picture questions, but a lot of autonomy in the middle for for how we get there.
[16:16]
And, you know, if we can have agreement around those assessments, then, you know, if students are able to perform equally well on those those assessments, then it's not going to matter too much, you know, which particular, you know, teachers class they were in because they're going to be ready. So I think that that tension between alignment and autonomy is one that we're constantly having to deal with, and probably that we've pulled too far in the direction of alignment in the last couple of years, just as, you know, as we've adopted new standards, we've gotten very serious about meeting those standards. And I just think we have to, you know, to keep that in mind, that a lot of what drives people, what motivates people to, you know, to bring their best selves to their work as educators is alignment. autonomy and that sense of creativity that they bring to the work and not to put creativity on such a pedestal that it, you know, that allows us to kind of get off the rails in terms of what we're setting out to teach.
[17:14]
But, you know, just the autonomy to make those judgment calls along the way to that destination. Yeah.
[17:20] SPEAKER_02:
Absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly. And there's so many different ways to meet these standards. And that's what's exciting. I mean, I know when I went into teaching, one of the things I loved about teaching is that I could be really creative. I'm not great.
[17:34]
I can't paint. I don't knit. Don't do needlepoint. But where I'm creative is I can create some amazing lessons that really get kids thinking and understanding and grasping skills and showing that they have demonstrated this knowledge and understanding. But I needed my learning goals. That's what I was missing when I first started teaching is learning.
[17:55]
Really, where am I headed here? It's not about this really engaging activity. This engaging activity serves a particular purpose. And the engaging activity I choose may not be the same one as the teacher next to me, but if we've planned together this rigor and these expectations, then we know that we're all headed in the same way, but there are different paths to get there.
[18:14] SPEAKER_00:
Kathy, I think you've done a really terrific job of something that's fairly difficult, and that is taking a process that everyone has heard of. We've all heard of designing units, backwards planning, mapping to standards, and so on. But I really have to say I appreciate the way you've laid it out for us in such a clear way because I think all of us can learn. listen back and think back on what we've talked about today and identify places where, you know, where we've not done that either, because it's hard. We've, we've skipped a step in the interest of time, or we've, you know, we've failed to give teachers the collaboration time they need to kind of get on the same page about those, those big picture questions for their units. So I want to, want to thank you for joining us on principal center radio.
[18:55] SPEAKER_02:
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
[18:59] SPEAKER_01:
And now, Justin Bader on high-performance instructional leadership.
[19:03] SPEAKER_00:
So high-performance instructional leaders, what did you take away from my conversation with Kathy Glass? I was impressed by Kathy's perspective on creating units together, but also giving people the autonomy that they need to feel like they're really contributing in the way that they need to as professionals. I think this is something of increasing concern and in our profession, that as we increase alignment, as we increase rigor, and as we get our act together as districts and as schools, that we make sure that we're carving out room for teachers to have the autonomy that they need, not only to be professionals, but to enjoy their work. And I think that's something that's less and less of a priority to people these days, but something that's going to catch up with us if we're not careful. think about what motivated you as a classroom teacher think about what motivates you in whatever work you're doing today and imagine that you have zero autonomy in how to do that work i think we're in real danger of squeezing out all of the autonomy from the teaching profession and i think if we're truly going to get the kind of people we want and retain them
[20:13]
in those roles, those critical roles as classroom teachers, as team leaders, we absolutely need to make sure that we're providing the conditions that people need to do their best work. And I think autonomy is a big part of that. Now, this is a great example of a polarity or a healthy tension that needs to exist in our schools. We need to have a healthy tension between alignment and autonomy because we know if we have a school where everyone does whatever they want and there's no accountability to each other, there's no degree of alignment or common expectation, there's no room for collaboration, then that's going to be a mess. It's not going to create a great experience for students. But I think lately we've gone too far in the other direction.
[20:53]
We've decided that everything has to be aligned, and even at the district level, which means it has to be handed down from the top, And we're really not giving teachers what they need in terms of the flexibility to do what needs to be done, to make decisions for their classroom, for their students, and really to contribute as creative professionals. We just have to remember that that's a lot of what drove people to get into this profession in the first place. So if I can leave you with one thing today, it's think about that tension. Think about that polarity between alignment and autonomy. And think about what actions you can take to create the optimal conditions for your teachers.
[21:31] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
