[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Baeder. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] Justin Baeder:
I'm your host, Justin Baeder, and I'm honored to be joined today by the three authors of the new book, Shifting, How School Leaders Can Create a Culture of Change.
[00:25] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:27] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:29] Justin Baeder:
Thank you, Justin. Jeff Eichler here. I'm the principal at Quetico Leadership and Career Coaching.
[00:34] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
Kirsten Rickard. I'm the CEO of Rickard Innovation Consulting.
[00:39] Justin Baeder:
Hi, I'm Margaret Zickei. I was a principal for 10 years and am now retired and also coaching people at the University of Connecticut who are aspiring leaders. All right, let's get into a little bit about the work that led to this book. I wonder if we can start by jumping in to some of the work that went into this book. What were you doing in your coaching and consulting practices, working with school leaders that ultimately led to this book?
[01:09] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
This book was a offering that married a couple of different schools of thought. Collectively, we've been in education for 100 plus years, according to Jeff's calculations. And we sort of come from very different disciplines, but have some overlapping commonalities. So both Jeff and I worked for education publishers for many years. And Jeff became a consultant who works with schools on best practices. And I work with teams and nonprofits around innovation and planning work.
[01:51]
And Jeff and I started having a series of really interesting conversations where we talked about change and how to make change happen that's actually productive change, not just, you know, it's easy to make a change happen, but to actually use change efforts to accomplish your objectives differently. that's really hard, right? And so we found that Jeff really came at it from a personal and leadership perspective. And I approached it from an organizational and team perspective. And then we actually enlisted Margaret. She was actually one of the first speakers who, and I think you were actually the first speaker, Margaret, who joined us on our podcast on the subject of change.
[02:35]
And we became these sort of, you know, three amigos and started really riffing on what does it actually take to change? And the book emerged out of that partnership.
[02:46] Justin Baeder:
For me, Justin, it goes all the way back to my teaching days when I was a high school history teacher. And I can remember, you know, there were various state mandates, federal mandates. There could be local suggestions of change. Somebody attended a workshop. Somebody read a book. Education has traditionally been buffeted by these inputs of change.
[03:06]
And what I saw as a teacher, and then to Kirsten's point, what I saw working for the educational publisher is that schools would get started on one change. They wouldn't necessarily finish that and another change would come along and they gravitated to what a number of educators have called the next shiny thing. So they had a couple plates spinning and the plates were wobbling and then they went on to something else. So what we wanted to do in the book was to provide a framework that would allow leaders and their teams to look at a change opportunity and say, is this really something that we want to undertake on behalf of the kids and the communities that we serve? That was the genesis. Margaret?
[03:47]
Well, and I, as a teacher and then as a school leader, have always been fascinated by change and the change process and sustainability. And as Jeff said, it is just so frustrating that it's always the next new thing and things never seem to gain ground. And so as they started to really flesh out this book and then wanted to include real stories from leaders throughout the country. And that's where I came on board and conducted those interviews. And then we wove it all together. It was kind of a tapestry, you know, and put in the leaders' stories that supported what we were saying in the book.
[04:28]
It was just absolutely fascinating. Well, certainly as a former school principal and a former teacher, I have many, many memories of different change efforts, and they never do us the courtesy of waiting until the previous change effort is over. We never have a proper funeral for one change effort when we welcome a new and possibly contradictory change effort in. So take us into your model in the book, if you would, Jeff. What are some of the core elements of your model? first of all, Justin, you said something very important, never waiting.
[05:01]
And I think one of the main things that we saw when we started looking at educators and we started talking with Margaret and had direct conversations with educators is that the pace within schools, within districts is so furious that they often don't afford themselves the space to sit back, to take a look and say, is this really something that we want to do? It almost becomes a very reactive, automatic response that we need to consider this. We need to do this. And so they go for it. And one of the places that we start at in the book is that districts really, schools and districts really need to settle on, we call it a why question. It's really, what are we after on behalf of the kids and communities that we serve?
[05:48]
What is it that we're trying to accomplish on their behalf? Because we had so many educators tell us, our school is unique. What other schools may be doing or a change that they may be doing may be fine for them, but we don't necessarily have to do it. that's really the starting point of the framework is getting schools and district leaders and their teams to slow down and say, what is it that we're trying to accomplish? What are the outcomes that we want on behalf of our kids? What's the impact we wanna have on behalf of our kids and faculty and community?
[06:20] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
Yeah, and once there's that clear sense of why, then it's very helpful to have a structure for how you're approaching a specific change. And obviously the first thing is tying it back to that why. How is this in service of our students and our communities? And so we have a very simple structure that leaders can use to kind of organize that process. It's called the ARC model. So A stands for assess, R stands for ready, and C stands for change.
[06:53]
And we're sort of saying that a lot of times there's a need, you feel a need, and you just go straight into action, right? And having the ARC framework where you're assessing the situation and how it ties back to that why And how it's in service of that why and you're doing a deep assessment and then you're getting people actually ready to engage and then you're actually deciding on a path of change and building in some loops, some iterative loops to actually sort of start small and play and see how it goes and grow and kind of have these timelines during the change process, that really helps. And the other aspect is this idea that this isn't just something that you're doing to people, right? There's a personal and leadership side of the ARC model, and there's also an organizational side. So what does it look like for the leader to assess themselves?
[07:46]
And what does it look like when an organization assesses themselves and the situation they're trying to make an impact on? What does it look like for the leader to get ready based on that assessment? And what does it look like for the organization to get ready? How are you going to engage people? How are you going to...
[08:01]
Get them up to speed. How are you going to have them help you generate the ideas and solutions? And then in the change process as well, how do I sustain myself? How do I keep this going? How do I learn from what we're experiencing? And how do we roll that out as a team and be better and better all the time?
[08:18] Justin Baeder:
I think also one thing that we talk about is the importance of looking at this as kind of a cyclical process. It's not linear in any way. We all know that things change rapidly in education, whether it's personnel or board of ed policies or state requirements. And so there's the aspect of constantly revisiting, but always with a clearly articulated why and making sure that everybody in the organization It doesn't have to be the leader who's the one who says what we're all about. Everybody knows what we're all about. Yeah, I think that's a great point, Margaret, that often the best changes don't start with a leader's idea.
[08:57]
And I've seen time after time, plenty of ill-conceived changes start with a leader going to a conference and coming back with a shopping bag full of great ideas that may not fit the reality in the school. And I think back on some of the most successful changes during my time as a principal, they were honestly not the ones that I chose. They were the ones that teachers had been advocating for for years to solve specific problems that they were encountering, that they were identifying in their students. I'm thinking in terms of curriculum, in terms of school-wide systems that we implemented to solve problems that people agreed over long periods of time needed to be addressed and needed to be addressed in particular ways. And as I've talked with our different members at the Principal Center, sometimes I'll have the opportunity to talk to people in depth one year and then three or four years will go by and i'll talk to that same person again and i remember being uh quite surprised after a follow-up conversation with with one particular school leader i said you know what we talked about the same things you said your priorities were exactly the same last time we talked and that was years ago what's what's going on how could your priorities and focus possibly be the same years and years later
[10:13]
And no surprise, this is an extraordinarily high-performing school. Why do you think we have such, I would almost call it attention deficit disorder when it comes to change? Why are we always jumping to the next shiny thing, even skipping that question of why, skipping that kind of theory of action? Why are we so addicted to the next shiny object? That's a great question. I think there's always the sense that there's going to be a magic bullet that's gonna solve all of our problems.
[10:43]
And I think what I saw sometimes when I was involved with change and when I was monitoring change as part of being in educational publishing is that there's an exhaustion that takes place on the part of those who are trying to implement the change. One, because they may have started Other changes now they're doing something else. On the other hand, there's always this kind of enamored feeling. Let's look at this now. Let's look at this to see if that's going to save us. So there's this tendency, this almost an unwillingness to really dig in and say, is this the right thing for us?
[11:16]
And let's stick to it and do it. Margaret, you were in the midst of this as a principal. What did you see? Yeah, I think that one issue is that educators tend to react rather than respond. And we talk about that in terms of something happens and we say we have to do something about it rather than sit with it and see what's really going to develop out of that. I also go back to the fact that if there are changes in personnel, you know, a new leader can come in with ideas.
[11:45]
And of course, that to me is Every leader I've ever coached, I say, don't do anything. Learn how this place works. Learn what people bring to the table. And find out why certain things are functioning the way they are instead of coming in with an agenda and saying, I'm the new leader. I'm going to change everything. I think that happens very often rather than continue the work that was already done.
[12:08]
And I think that that's one reason why... you get this kind of ping pong effect.
[12:12] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
I think it also has to do with at some base level, there's kind of an assumption that if things aren't going the way you were hoping to go, it's those people's fault, right? So you can't possibly kind of look to what's working and to build on what's working than just come in with some magic bullet, right? And so there's this sort of profound level of distance or disrespect for all the good things that are actually happening. One of the major aha moments in leaders' eyes is to say, okay, people immediately gravitate to what's not working. And when you say, okay, so if that's your vision of, okay, this is your why, and this is your vision of the future, what's the current state? And you always have to remind them what's actually working as well as what's not working in the current state.
[13:06]
And all of a sudden it's like a floodgate comes open and you can see a lot of opportunities for where it's actually working. But it kind of goes back to what you were saying before, Justin, which is that a lot of times all of these initiatives are actually pulling apart from each other. In other words, because we're all in silos and we all have our piece of the puzzle that we're looking at, we tend to be doing a lot of things, but not syncing up. So it's not a surprise when your high performing districts are actually still focused on the same thing years later, because that's what made them high performing in the first place. You know, it's that flywheel effect where it really gets going and it keeps going. The cognitive dissonance between all these diverse efforts is reduced and you start getting real momentum.
[13:53] Justin Baeder:
Just to build on what Kirsten said, having been in educational publishing, which is education, but it's also the business side of education. Businesses, my perspective is businesses do the same thing. We were very undisciplined in terms of looking at change. We would see something new. Somebody would write a book and we would look at that. Oh, we got to do that.
[14:14]
And I think that's what happens in education as well is that We're, we're reforming around the edges. We're never looking at the big picture of education. We're always kind of nipping at the edges. So somebody is always coming out with something new. And so we take a look at it rather than looking at how do we really need to transform the system that we're in. So one dynamic that I've seen in many schools is this tendency for a new leader to come in and want to kind of prove himself or prove herself, want to show a sense of being up to date and cutting edge and being serious as a leader and encountering a lot of conflict with staff and resistance from staff over changes that may not be perceived as necessary, that may be perceived as somewhat self-serving and lacking kind of in empathy for what that change will really ask of staff.
[15:08]
So what are some ways leaders who are maybe not new to leadership, but new to a particular organization can avoid that pitfall of saying, you know, okay, I know what's best here. What we did in my last school or what I just learned about at a conference is exactly what this school needs. What can we do to get away from that kind of top down approach to change that triggers resistance? Behaviors of the leader make an enormous difference. If you are encouraging engagement, you're empowering teachers, you know, you've got the culture of risk taking and everybody knows where we're going. You lose that us and them and the us and them mentality in education is just In some places, it's like it's cement.
[15:52]
So I guess I would say it was interesting, Justin, that you mentioned new leaders because every single one of the people I talked to said, this is nothing we talked about in preparation programs. And now being involved in UConn, there's a great deal of emphasis on who are you as a leader? What are the behaviors? How are you growing as a leader? not your access and your ability to spout knowledge because that's just not what it's about. I think that this is a very common problem.
[16:23]
And so often leaders come in and they think the way to establish themselves as leaders is to make changes. They're going to have some bold decision. They're going to shake things up because they have a better way. um there in many cases leaders now receive the support that we didn't used to when we started whether it's from within the district or coaches from from outside who really give that feedback and ask those questions and the number one thing i heard from so many uh leaders out there in terms of advice to new leaders is be the lead learner. Come in and find out what is already going on. What can you find out about the people here?
[17:02]
I used to say that I wanted to find out what people could bring. What were the gifts that you had that you could bring to this whole, to this organization? And leaders have got to start really, really looking at shared leadership and empowering teachers to make decisions because they are the ones who have the information and working as a team rather than an us and them kind of situation. I think there's kind of an inherent belief in some new leaders, in many new leaders, that they have to have the answers, that people are going to look to them to have the answers. And if they don't, they're going to look like, well, why are you in this position? And one of the things that we stress in the book for leaders, and Margaret hit on this, is to really stop talking and start asking questions.
[17:50]
Because if you ask questions, you're expressing an interest in the people that you're conversing with. When you're simply the only person doing the talking, you're creating a positional relationship between yourself and staff. I'm up here, you're down here, I'm going to direct. And a lot of time that's based on the fact, to Margaret's point, they really haven't been exposed to a different way of leading. They're confusing leadership with management, if you will. And what we try to talk about in the book is having leaders become much more reflective of who they are.
[18:22]
What are the behaviors that I need to demonstrate that help to grow my staff rather than position myself as this omniscient, all-knowing being? Kirsten brought this up early on. We're really taking a different look here. It's not just about the mechanics of change in the book. It's really about the people side of change, the leaders and the people who actually do it. We spend at least half the book talking about how we grow ourselves differently so that we can do this work.
[18:47] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
It's really opening up leadership on all different levels, just as we've been saying. And it's acknowledging that the stakeholders in the school district are not just your go-tos. A lot of times when I do innovation work with teams and you say, okay, so who do we need to invite to come up with ideas to solve this issue? You get the same cast of characters as always. right but then if you say okay so and who else needs to be involved right so then it's a little larger and then you say and who can represent the students and who can represent the parents and who can represent you know our partners in other organizations that support our school and who can represent the folks who are watching the kids in the lots outside on the way in like when you start actually thinking about who is needed to be activated and where those wisdoms and strengths are that Margaret spoke to and how you can get that involved in a change offer, you get a very different picture for how to proceed.
[19:51]
And a lot of times it's actually building on something that's already there.
[19:56] Justin Baeder:
We've touched on this several times already, the idea that in any school, there are lots of things that are already working, but we seem to have a professional bias against noticing that. Even in the term status quo, no one ever says, hey, we are stuck in the status quo, good for us. We always mean that in a bad way, right? And I think what a lot of leaders fail to recognize when they're talking about change is...
[20:21]
when you're changing the status quo, you're not only changing the things that are not working, you might also be changing a lot of things that are working great. You might be breaking something that is getting you results that you're not giving it credit for. So how can we avoid that mistake? Whenever we're talking about change, how can we avoid getting rid of what's working and really recognize the value in the status quo? You know, one thing that I was thinking when you were talking, Justin, was that In order to have any of this work, a leader needs to set up structures for communication, because it is about finding out from people, how is this working for you? We all know we can sit in a room and make these decisions and then you go back to your school and everybody says, that's the last thing that's going to work.
[21:05]
And then you're back to the drawing board. So I think that really the main thing is to make sure that you're getting the input before you take action, to make sure that you're acting on the right thing and that people are going to agree with where you're going. I think part of it though is really fundamental. It's identifying what is working. It's having the courage as a leader to say, what are we doing that's right? How can we celebrate the fact that we are starting to see gains in such and such an area?
[21:37]
Because a lot of times we don't do that. Businesses often don't do that as well. And part of it is pace, but part of it is we're so focused on what's not working that we tend to skip over what is.
[21:51] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
I think part of what makes it so exhausting to be in this barrage of change efforts is just that a lot of good work gets undone by the next wave. And so, you know, it's funny how in your innovation curve, right, you have the early adopters and the folks in the middle, and then you have your folks that will take forever to get them on board, right? Well, actually, you're burning out your early adopters all the time. because you basically start a bunch of stuff that they get jazzed about and then they don't see the results of their work because you don't support them anymore. And the middle bit says, they're tired. Okay, we're just going to wait around.
[22:32]
And the last bit says, I'm completely right. And so one of the things that we talk about with this ARC model is get momentum. celebrate little victories, acknowledge everybody's work, pause for celebrations, build on stuff, start small so you accumulate some victories and build on stuff and stay committed to that arc for long enough because you've actually taken the time upfront to link it to something that everybody knows they care about and can really buy into so that there's some sticking power. It goes back to the word Margaret used, which is sustainability.
[23:07] Justin Baeder:
You know, when you look at the structure of a school calendar, we go for the school year, summer comes, it ends. We have end of the year testing. So everything is gearing up for June. And then there's this break and you come back and people say, oh, it's a new year. What are we doing differently? How are things going to work this year?
[23:25]
And in almost every school, or most often, you have new staff members. There are people to bring on board every single year. And so I think that as a lot of times leaders don't talk enough about continuous improvement. It's not about this is where we were at the end of last year. What are we going to do differently this year? It is about what worked last year and how are we going to build on that?
[23:48]
You know, and you have to kind of draw that through line for new staff and for people coming back because there's a break in the school year. Yeah, the word we use in the book is coherence. We often see that changes are undertaken, but they're not aligned to something that the district or school is already doing. So it's seen as something new or abstract. It's seen as out there on its own. And what we argue for in the book is this idea of tying whatever change we're considering to some other element that we already have underway, something good that we're doing, because that leads us to reach desired outcome to have the impact that we want to have.
[24:27]
I love that. Let's say we have a school leader who is maybe tasked with getting the staff on board with a district initiative and is getting some pushback from staff who are saying, you know what, we're already doing so much. We're still in the middle of implementing the district's priorities from last year. You know, Justin, can you protect us from having to make this change that the district is kind of forcing on us? What can leaders who are kind of caught in the middle do do to create that sense of coherence and not just a rhetorical coherence where thematically they're linked and we can connect the dots on paper, but really a felt sense of coherence for staff. That's such a typical situation, right?
[25:08]
That is often there are new initiatives. And I do think that I know I used to start every year and pull out these tired old charts that we made when we first got together as a school group and said, you know, what are we here for? What are we all about? What's the climate we want? What's our culture? What's our vision?
[25:28]
Where are we going? What's our purpose? And after we did that, we always said, if that's what we want to achieve, how do we have to act? And teachers came up with a number of behaviors that we said, OK, this is kind of our, this is what we're following. And we brought that out every year. And we said, OK, when we started two years, three years, four years, eight years ago, this is what we said.
[25:51]
Is this still where we are? And so we built on that. And I think that that continuity, that sense of you're not starting brand new is really, really important. Because yes, everybody's had a break. but, and you're going to have a new class, but you go back and you talk to the previous year's teacher, you get in touch with the unified arts teachers who have all of the students, you find out what worked for this child last year and what do I want to continue doing? But I think that that reflection and revisiting, you know, kind of the tenants that you live by is very, very important for leaders.
[26:27] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
And I think also, sometimes you need to blow them off or do them in lip service. In other words, yes, I can see the value of that. And we're going to comply like this, a little. But actually, our main focus is still going to be... And so some of the job of the leader is to actually like...
[26:51]
figure out how to do lip service to some of those big things or, or to really internalize the intention of that new request and sync it up with the intention of what you're trying to get done back to Margaret's visual. Like here's what we said we're about, here's what we're doing and here's how we're behaving and then make a very deliberate attempt. And sometimes that really changes what the new ask is.
[27:20] Justin Baeder:
I would add, too, that in this vein of not always talking but asking questions, as a leader, I might ask, what would happen if we don't do this? And I don't want a response right now. I want your thoughtful thinking about this. But if we don't do this, what might happen? And that's the leader appealing to the people who have the information and are in the trenches doing the work as opposed to, oh, we got to do this. It came down from district.
[27:48]
So I think, again, it's incumbent upon that leader to stop, back up and say, and sometimes not talk, but to ask, to try to engage his people or her people.
[28:00] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
And I think part of the intention of having a deliberate arc is to sort of, as you're undertaking a new initiative that you have decided lines up, right? You're sort of, you have phases, right? So you're not leaping immediately to solutions. You're actually uncovering it. You're digging in. Okay, if this is what we're trying to solve for, what's the root causes here?
[28:24]
you know, and which root causes are the ones that we can do something about or that we have some basis in or that seem like they'll be the most impactful. And then after that, sort of what resources, in the ready stage, what resources do we have? What ideas do we have? And how do those line up with what we can get done? And then actually bite off stuff. Okay, so now...
[28:50]
You know, what do we intend to do? What experiments are we going to intend to take on this? And what's our timeframe? Like, we're not solving this overnight. Like, what is the actual timeframe and how are we building in some learning loops? We know we're going to get it wrong.
[29:05]
We know, and we know we're going to get it right a bit too, right? So like, how are we going to suss this out from the people who actually are in the process of doing it? Because you exhaust your staff and you exhaust your early adopters. by not checking in. How's it going? Now what support do you need?
[29:26]
What did we not know yet that we now can see that we've gotten this far? What's happening next?
[29:33] Justin Baeder:
Pearson makes a great point. There's often a belief that the change has to be done right away. There's an imperative to do the change. But there's not necessarily an imperative to do it right away. One of the people that Margaret interviewed in the book, he was the Illinois Superintendent of the Year in 2018. He was the National Superintendent of the Year in 2018.
[29:57]
His advice was, you don't have to do this right away. Take your time, figure it out. And yes, you may lose a year with certain classes, but you'll figure it out in a much smarter way if you take your time. And you'll uncover, as Kirsten said, you're gonna uncover more if you take your time. So it's kind of the maxim, go slow to go fast. So the book is Shifting, How School Leaders Can Create a Culture of Change.
[30:27]
Jeff, Kirsten, and Margaret, what's one big idea that each of you hope readers take away from this book? I would really hope that the leader could engage the staff, if they haven't already done it, engage their staff in being able to confirm and express in a very simple sentence, what is it that they're all about? And I'll give you an example. We interviewed a phenomenal principal who inherited a very underperforming school. This was an underperforming elementary school of over 900 kids. And when she came in, she did exactly what Margaret advised, which was she didn't start saying, here's what we're gonna do.
[31:09]
She started asking a lot of questions and she started observing. And what she noticed is that the kids in the school had little or no faith in themselves. They didn't see a future for themselves. They didn't see where their life was gonna go anywhere. So she worked with staff to develop, basically, their why was, how do we get these kids to believe in themselves? What is it that we need to do to get the kids to believe in themselves?
[31:37]
Because they're good people. So it wasn't about test scores. It wasn't about academic outcomes. It was really looking at these kids as human beings. And I think if school leaders can help their staffs confirm that, if you can have that simple articulated idea, you're starting at a good point where everything you then consider, you can use that as a lens to look through as a filter, if you will. Do we want to do this?
[32:01]
Is this going to help us make this kind of change? And she was able to say yes to some things and no to a whole lot of things because it wasn't going to help make these kids believe in themselves. So that's what I would offer. And I would say that the leader needs to take the time to create culture of engagement to make sure that there are the structures for collaboration, that teachers feel empowered to come in and make the decisions and give the feedback and input into decisions so that the decisions are ones that are really, we're doing what's best for students. We're doing what's best for kids and for families. But I think that that takes time for a leader to be sure that they have behaved in a way and kind of gained the trust and, you know, that the people know who they are.
[32:55]
Their staff knows them and they know how they're going to act. And that what they're really looking for is increased engagement.
[33:02] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
And I will say like the Kirsten version of exactly those two points, which is there's a maxim in innovation that is the solution is contained within the problem. So a new leader goes in and thinks about a situation and is assuming that the people and the resources and the system that there is there is not what's needed to solve the problem. You need some sort of crazy you know, intervention from outside. And that's actually not how to go about it. So articulate that why and stick with it, empower and engage your staff and stick with it. And the solution is actually there.
[33:48]
It's just a matter of unlocking it.
[33:51] Justin Baeder:
So again, the book is Shifting, How School Leaders Can Create a Culture of Change. If people want to get in touch with you online, where's the best place for them to do that?
[34:02] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
can go to shiftingforimpact.com. And our book is also available through Corwin Press.
[34:09] Justin Baeder:
Well, Jeff, Kirsten, and Margaret, thanks so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. Thank you, Justin.
[34:13] Kirsten Richert, Jeffrey Ikler & Margaret Zacchei:
Thank you so much for having us. It's been so fun.
[34:16] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
