[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Baeder. Welcome everyone to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] Justin Baeder:
I'm your host, Justin Baeder, and I'm honored to welcome to the podcast, Dr. Kristen Rodriguez. Kristen Rodriguez, PhD, is an award-winning educational leader and former superintendent and principal, and she's the creator of the MTSS Square framework that replaces fragmented referral practices with proactive data-informed structures. Dr. Rodriguez is the founder and CEO of Commonwealth Consulting Agency, a trusted partner to state agencies, districts, and schools nationwide. Dr. Rodriguez is the bestselling author of In Support of Student Data, A Data Workbook for MTSS Teams, and In Support of Students, A Leader's Guide to Equitable MTSS.
[00:49] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:52] Justin Baeder:
Dr. Rodriguez, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:54] Kristan Rodriguez:
Thank you for having me.
[00:55] Justin Baeder:
Excited to talk about your new book in support of student data. We have been hearing about MTSS and student data and the importance of collecting data and doing something with it for many years now, but you have a new framework called MTSS squared. Take us into that a little bit.
[01:12] Kristan Rodriguez:
Absolutely. So the squared comes from the concept of MTSS functioning both as a system and as a support for students. So the systems component is the first S, if you will, of the squared and student and support is the second. So when we think about MTSS, we have to think about both that underlying system that we're designing and developing, and we also have to provide support for principals and schools in implementing any access and integration of those supports into the daily fabric of the school. So that's where that squared comes from. I like to say that it's a series of fours.
[01:51]
I don't know where four came up. It just kind of manifested itself into reality. It wasn't intentional. And so there's aspects of this framework that go in fours. The first is that MTSS has four domains. The four domains are traditional ones like the academic domain that you're probably really familiar with.
[02:10]
Social-emotional behavioral is the second domain. Belonging and connectedness is third domain. And the fourth, and these go in no particular order. I just did those in that order because those first two seem to be those that people are the most familiar with. And the last being mental health and well-being. So those are the four domains of MTSS.
[02:28]
So as we're thinking about supporting students, we're doing so in a holistic nature. MTSS Squared also has four data sets. So we're looking at outcomes data. That's the impact of the work that we're doing. We're looking at instructional data, what's happening within our classrooms. We're really listening.
[02:48]
And this is something I don't think we do great as administrators every day, which is to integrate perspectives data into our work. So before we get to a process of, for example, a formal evaluation request where we get the families engaged and request permission, way before then, beginning of the onset, we're engaging with the students, even the littles, and having conversations with them or creating formalized way for them to give perspective about what it's like to be a learner for themselves, how they're interacting with their environment, and what would work best for them and what doesn't work well from their perspective. So perspective data is It's inclusive of families and caregivers and students, and certainly of our educators that are in the classroom and our leaders. And the fourth data set is our systems data. Those are things like what are our policies and procedures saying?
[03:41]
What... Do the products of our work, the schedules, the handbooks, what's the data and information we can kind of draw from those pieces? Those are the four data sets of MTSS within my framework. In addition to that, There's four phases, stages of database decision-making, and we can go into that later on if you're interested in that aspect as well.
[04:06]
So we've got the four domains, the four data outcomes, the four data stages, and the final is the four components of MTSS that we can make adjustments around for high leverage impact, things like staffing, scheduling, assessments, and materials.
[04:25] Justin Baeder:
Kristen, I think one of the main characteristics that people would identify in MTSS that distinguishes it from some of the approaches that we used prior to MTSS is the proactivity, right? The idea that we don't just wait for students to fail and then say, well, what are we going to do? That our data is not just retrospective. We're not just looking at students who are not succeeding. And then saying, you know, too bad. We're saying, what can we do proactively?
[04:50]
Take us into some of how that works. You mentioned the data sources and the domains and the stages of decision-making. What does it look like for school to be proactive? Because I think probably most teachers have felt the frustration of saying, hey, I think this kid is struggling. Can I get a referral? Can this kid get some sort of help?
[05:05]
And often we hear things like, well, they don't qualify or, oh, we'd have to do an assessment or, oh, we'd have to get the family to sign off. How does MTSS and MTSS Squared in particular approach some of those issues differently?
[05:17] Kristan Rodriguez:
So this is probably the biggest component of MTSS Squared that I'm most passionate about, which is the whole reason for designing it was because the current model in almost every organization I've ever consulted with or I'm aware of or worked in is that students need to struggle in order to be identified for whatever you want to call it. Child find team, student support team, staff support team. It requires the student to struggle. And then there's an added layer of teacher has to then refer to this team for the child to be considered. And as a former principal, I can attest that if they brought them too soon in the year, we said, well, we want you to try things. What about the accommodation plan?
[06:00]
What are you doing with them in the classroom? Before we have a conversation about the needs of this learner. So what I've done is gotten rid of that whole process of waiting for the child to fail and then going through a formal referral form from an educator. And we do three data cycles. So we do the universal screening and then we do a diagnostic screening. So that is the students below grade level and the students below grade level in a domain like a fluency or comprehension.
[06:31]
For those students that are identified as below grade level, we will do a skill-specific diagnostic assessment to determine why that is happening. And then we take that information to identify those students. We have these protocols that we've developed. So it takes the guesswork out of it using the assessments that the principals are actually using. So it's not some generic. You create a placement matrix, a decision-making tool based on the actual screening measures that are happening in that particular school.
[07:06]
And then you define those students that would be identified for additional assessments. For students that are identified for needing tiered support beyond tier one, you would include other information such as all of those other data sets that I talked about. What the student is saying about their own learning, the grades that the teacher provides, observations of that student or what's happening in the classroom with them. So all of that other information gets brought to a meeting in which we identify the support plan. for that individual child. This happens regardless of the child find process.
[07:43]
It informs it. We do not use MTSS as a gatekeeper. In other words, we're not going to evaluate you until we try MTSS or these three cycles because that's against the law to do. When we suspect a disability, we evaluate. We don't stop MTSS interventions and plans while we evaluate. We can do those at the same time.
[08:04]
And the data we collect, if the child is found eligible in a need of an IEP or special education services, that data can inform the IEP. So again, they work in parallel tracks. They don't undo each other. But what we did find was when we did a better job of proactively providing MTSS, we had far less unnecessary evaluations because it wasn't based on a student that we suspected necessarily had a disability. It was just, they're so far behind and there's no other game in town. So I think it does both.
[08:37]
It doesn't become a gatekeeper for Child Find and it also doesn't, you know, weigh down that team that's doing those evaluations with unnecessary students being brought.
[08:46] Justin Baeder:
I think that addresses one of the biggest frustrations for teachers, which is the waiting game of, you know, collect data, you know, see how things go, report back, try some things. And it feels for teachers like that's just an opportunity for the system to drag its feet and for the student to fall farther and farther behind, not actually a valuable form of data collection. So you said in the MTSS squared process, that process itself is being activated immediately and is producing the data that can then be used perhaps in an evaluation down the road.
[09:15] Kristan Rodriguez:
Correct. And it happens in three cycles throughout the year so that we're not delaying. You know, if you've been in schools that I've been in, and I'm sure we all have across the country, sometimes we don't even begin services until four, six, eight weeks in after they've made a referral because we're doing all this data collection as you mentioned so it's proactive it happens three times a year now if a student is moves in the middle of the year a teacher can still initiate an evaluation in the process because they might say well this child wasn't there for that but they're struggling let's let's do that data with them right away or if For example, they weren't struggling during that first cycle, but mid-cycle something happens and they're starting to struggle. So it doesn't take teacher agency away in bringing forward students that they think we need to have conversations about.
[10:08]
However, it takes the responsibility away systemically from waiting for them to do that. And it embeds those data cycles right into the beginning of the year so that we can be much more proactive about our interventions.
[10:23] Justin Baeder:
Let's say one clear advantage of the special education world is that it has money and staff attached to it. You know, if a student has an IEP, there's probably somebody responsible for managing that IEP, for providing services to that student. And that's not always true, or at least it's not true under federal law automatically with MTSS. So what are schools doing to actually put resources behind those steps? Because...
[10:49]
You know, people might say, well, I don't just want to have more meetings about this student. I want to actually help the student. And who's going to do that? So in the schools that implement this well, what do they do to provide that actual help, knowing that it can't just be looking at data. It has to actually be doing something for the student.
[11:05] Kristan Rodriguez:
Absolutely. So that's the first half of the book. So the first half of the book talks about those four levers that you can pull to ensure that when you implement those data cycles, you have resources for that. So staffing, scheduling, materials, tiered materials across all three tiers and assessments are necessary to even get started. to that framework where we're meeting about the needs of the students. And so the workbook itself walks the teams through protocols and assessments, self-assessments and audits and reviews, so we can take a good hard look at our patterns of support and identify both for things like budget requests or reassignment of existing staff.
[11:48]
And that's something I always used to tell my principals when I was superintendent and as a principal, I was taught, which was before you ask for more, you really need to look at what you have already. It may not be the same role, but it might be within the same FTE. So one example would be if you have a school who's struggling with attendance and they have the old traditional role of an attendance officer and they're paying for someone to knock on doors and say, shame on you, you need to come to school or we might bring you to court and all of those things. We are not finding that to be an effective approach to increasing student attendance. So we switched that position with a position that deals with engagement. And so works as an engagement liaison with the student.
[12:38]
So works with the staff to identify what are those barriers for students that are preventing them from being in school and meeting those needs so that they attend, not out of force or fear, but out of feeling that they're cared for and engaged. So that didn't add a position. It just shifted our approach, how we use it. It may be a different person with a different background, but it doesn't change the FTEs. Another approach would be to say, let's look at staffing positions that are not effective. So we know that in a lot of schools, there's been a lot of research that when we use the para-educators or classroom aides as band-aids, either to stop a student from being sent out of our district or school or for purposes solely for checking off on a list that they're present, that it's not a super effective approach.
[13:38]
However, there are effective approaches like a co-teaching approach, which is a very evidence-based approach to inclusive practice and inclusion. So trade in a number of ineffective positions, classroom aid positions in support of a co-taught class that also includes an aid or a paraeducator in there as well. And so again, what you're doing is thinking about, I have limited money. How do I allocate that? So the way you do that, guided through what we talk about in what I talk about in this book is through a series of reviews and protocols, which then let us understand what we have and how we might want to make changes. And then you know what, if we have to add additional staff, then we have a very robust data set and defense strategy.
[14:26]
to articulate that need, whether it be at the district level or even within our own school community. So again, I think understanding where we're at, trying to utilize our resources in more evidence-based ways, and then when we don't have it, really thinking about how do we work towards that. And the best ways sometimes... our creative ways where we might, before we ask for more resources, think about what are we spending money on that we might not need to spend the money on that we can move those monies into another line.
[14:57]
So for me, a silly example, but it's a true and obvious one was I was a superintendent in Massachusetts. And so we have cold winters. And what I found was that we were kind of purchasing oil for the heating of the buildings in a reactive way. you know, on a month by month basis or when it kind of depleted, as opposed to when the cost was down, purchasing then larger quantities of that oil so that we were getting a better deal for it. And all of the money and resources that came from small measures, but they built, were monies that I eventually was able to apply to FTEs.
[15:35] Justin Baeder:
I wonder if we could talk a little bit about numbers and ratios and the sense that in some schools, the number of students who need higher tiers of support is just too high, right? And of course this tracks closely with socioeconomic status that if we have more students who are coming from lower SES backgrounds, the level of need is going to be higher. And yet traditionally in the MTSS world, there's this idea of a fixed ratio that tier one should meet the needs of say 85% of students. What's your take on the size of those tiers and how that varies from school to school and kind of how we think about that?
[16:11] Kristan Rodriguez:
You'll notice that I don't use the triangle imagery in what I provide. Instead, if you look at some of the materials that I provided, either through statewide guidance for states like Massachusetts or whatnot, we design the imagery around MTSS as a schoolhouse because it is, I think that when we do the triangle, it automatically pushes percentages into our mindset. So one of the things that we do is we let the data drive the level of support that students receive. And when we have higher rates of need, we need to staff accordingly. We cannot say, well, there's a high rate of need. We don't have the staff.
[16:51]
So therefore we're doing the cutoff at this point. We have to think about what are ways that we can provide that intervention for our students. The other thing is we have to create the systems to allow for that. So we need flexibility in our staffing assignments, which we don't do so great always. A lot of times we have our staff's schedules and that's the schedule and that's their assignment for the year. We do so in compliance with a bargaining agreement.
[17:20]
We don't go outside of that, but we do need to offer flexibility in where our staff is assigned during those three cycles. We also need time in the day that doesn't take from core instruction to do that. And in the schools where I hear terms like a reverse triangle, right, where a lot of our kids are struggling, that's an opportunity to not only have a conversation about tiered intervention, but what are we doing in tier one? to address some of those opportunity or outcome challenges and gaps that exist in our school? And how are we proactive in closing some of those gaps for our students integrated into tier one through things like long block? longer blocks where they could do small group instruction to think how I create tiers within my tiers.
[18:13]
So I'm that annoying person. My tier two is not just tier two. I have tier two A, tier two B, and tier two E in my model, which you'll see if you get the book. Tier 2A are for students that are low grade level. These are students that would benefit from things like during an additional block that everyone has access to, they might get small group instruction with their teacher or they might get work with a high dosage tutor. Tier 2A is for students that are low grade level.
[18:41]
So you're using grade level texts, the materials, just the intervention components of those resources. Tier 2B are for students that are below grade level. And those are the students that will receive an intervention resource with an interventionist during those intervention cycles. Tier 2E is for those students that are above grade level. Some of those students might be twice exceptional. They might have a disability and be above grade level.
[19:10]
And so what we're thinking about is how are we supporting and servicing those students? And then tier three is not synonymous with special education. Students with disabilities might receive supports across all tiers. And students that are not identified as having a disability may need intensive support with a reading specialist. And so again, we try not to put up barriers, artificial barriers for students to receive services. And in that way, we see those inflated rates of students being below grade level as being addressed by strong tier one.
[19:47]
If you look at the other book, not the workbook, but the other book I wrote, we talk a little bit about components of tier one. Some of those are high quality instructional materials and evidence-based instructional practices. So if we're doing those things and acceleration practices, we will be able to address that systemic factor that students are coming to us with.
[20:10] Justin Baeder:
Yeah, I feel like when that artificial number, kind of a hard cap on how many kids can get tier two or tier three services is imposed, what happens to tier one then is it just gets dropped below grade level. Like people say, well, my kids are mostly below grade level, so I'm gonna meet them where they are. And then we get into below grade level instruction and nobody ever catches up. Or as Timothy Shanahan says, leveled reading, leveled lives. And I think that goes for any type of instruction. If we're teaching kids below grade level, because that's where we feel like they are and we're never teaching them grade level content, then yeah, how are they going to catch up?
[20:41]
So I appreciate your perspective there.
[20:43] Kristan Rodriguez:
I reached out to my LinkedIn colleagues and I told them I'm coming on this podcast and what would you as a principal like to see addressed? And so I'm just going to take a sneak peek if that's okay at that post because I got some responses and make sure that- I did do a good job of addressing what, you know, they had shared with me were some challenges. One of those was from Stephen Gallo. He's a principal in the Woburn Public Schools. And he said that you see most often are pre-referral systems that were built for a different era. They tend to rely on waiting, documenting, and providing rather than noticing, responding, and supporting.
[21:22]
So I think we've already addressed his area, which is that it requires students to struggle before we do this. Another challenge, he said, is the heavy load on teachers and principals pulling into paperwork and compliance instead of structures. That's where those phases and those data cycles really come into play. They're proactive, they're embedded, they're integrated. And we have separate working groups. We have an MTSS team who is more at the building leadership level, who's doing that systems work around staffing and scheduling.
[21:55]
And then we have a separate team who's the student support team of the MTSS Square team who's getting support and love in how to implement those cycles themselves, both as being regular members on the team and then bringing in other staff members as it relates to individual students. So I think we did a good job of addressing that one. Carol Jacobs, who is an adjunct professor at the American International College, said that SST process is often thought of as a direct path to finding special needs because teachers have tried everything. The lack of well-designed process is kind of grounded, she says, in a deficit model rather than a team looking at what we can do, how they can use data and collaborate to problem solve. So, again, we address that. I think by talking about this as a proactive approach that where data drives that and we do not wait ever for students to fail before we give that.
[22:47]
Christine Elliott is an assistant superintendent. This will be the last one that I share, but I think it's nice to hear some voices from the field as I kind of think, is this the last thing that I wanted to say? She says the SST process often feels redundant and more like checking boxes in a district. She agrees with Stephen, the principal, that it was built for a different era and Carol, about it being a direct path to special education. And I think for us, we have to look at this for not being a gatekeeper to special education evaluation and not being a pathway to that, that it's there to support students. That's the purpose of MTSS.
[23:26]
And if we suspect a disability, we will evaluate. And all of that data from MTSS can inform that. But it's bigger than that. And that's why the federal law changed. And they stopped referring to it as RTI, response to intervention, because that was, by definition, a referral, pre-referral pathway. Whereas MTSS is larger.
[23:48]
That's why we draw that image of a school. It's pretty much what we do to support all kiddos. Looking back at that model, it has a bigger purpose and makes it a more effective approach in my mind.
[24:00] Justin Baeder:
That reminds me of the famous quote from bank robber Willie Sutton, who was asked, you know, why do you rob banks? And of course, he said, that's where the money is. And I think so often that's our approach to special education is we think special education is the solution because that's where the money is. But as you've been pointing out, that's not the right path for every student. It's not the right option for every student. And there have to be other things in place.
[24:24]
So Kristen, if people want to get in touch with you and chat about how to put those systems in place, where can they go online and how can they reach you?
[24:31] Kristan Rodriguez:
So they can reach me at Kristen, K-R-I-S-T-A-N, at cca-pr.com or our website, www.cca-pr.com. Either way, feel free. Also, they can purchase the workbook on any major site, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, through my publisher, Wiley, Josie Bass.
[24:54]
They can access the workbook. The intent behind me writing the workbook was that folks don't need a level of a consultant to come in. There's a lot that they could do on their own. What I'm finding is people say, yes, but, yes, and, I should say, yes, and we also want some support from you. And so they can reach out to me if they're also looking for some consulting support in how to implement. We are doing a weird...
[25:18]
Working on designing statewide academies around that and so that folks have access with the context of where they do their work.
[25:26] Justin Baeder:
So the book is In Support of Student Data, a data workbook for MTSS teams. Dr. Kristen Rodriguez, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure.
[25:35] Kristan Rodriguez:
Thank you for having me.
[25:36] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
