Radical Principals: A Blueprint for Long-Term Equity and Stability at School

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] SPEAKER_00:

I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome back to the program Dr. Mike Gaskell. Mike is a veteran middle school principal in East Brunswick, New Jersey, who writes extensively on school culture, trauma, educational leadership. He's written more than three dozen articles and three books, and he mentors new principals through the Leaders to Leaders program and is quite involved throughout the profession. And we are here today to talk about his new book, Radical Principles, a blueprint for long-term equity and stability at school.

[00:48]

Mike, welcome back to Principal Center Radio.

[00:50] SPEAKER_01:

It's a pleasure to be back here with you, Justin. Thanks so much for having me back on.

[00:54] SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm excited to talk about this. You've done a lot of reflecting, you know, about the needs of schools, you know, kind of, uh, you know, having gone through what we've gone through over the last couple of years. And I'm intrigued by your subtitle about long-term equity and stability. What did you see happening in the profession that prompted this book?

[01:11] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, wow, this is like a continuation or an evolution from some of my previous writings. And you mentioned Leading Schools Through Trauma, which came out a year ago, and it was an honor to be on your podcast for that. And that was a pretty clear or obvious one for me to write because we were coming out of a pandemic, kids were already showing an increase in trauma, and it was so important to harness some of the ideas that I've seen, both anecdotally and through research. And then I started to recognize some larger longitudinal issues, which, as I was saying in the pre-show, it was actually more rewarding to write this harder book than it was the Leading Schools for Trauma one and not to minimize the benefits of that one. But this one really gave me the opportunity to size up some of the challenges we're dealing with, most of which is institutionalized. And I get into that in the book.

[02:01]

It's nobody's fault. There's a lot of unconscious bias going on and things like that that I'll mention. And it's important for us to recognize that and then to really begin to disrupt inequities. And that's how I talk about this. This is the language I use. is disrupting inequity, and there's a whole bunch of things I could throw at you in our short podcast time together.

[02:19] SPEAKER_00:

Well, let's start by just talking about what it means to be a radical principle. You use the phrase throughout the book to, uh, to describe certain characteristics or approaches to leadership. What is a radical principle?

[02:31] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I have a quote that really sizes this up, and I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna share this quote with you. Radical approaches are the sorts that are crazy the day they are brilliant. and the payoff is enormous, especially for children who are disadvantaged. Students are the real winners of fearlessly radical principles who vigorously and willfully demand equitable opportunities within their school community for all. So that really, to me, It sort of summarizes then, okay, so what are we going to do to be radical and how are we going to start to help those children that are in such great need?

[03:04] SPEAKER_00:

I can kind of visualize the opposite of that, right? The sense of just kind of bureaucratic inertia and just kind of, you know, that feeling of, well, this is just kind of the way it is. We roll our eyes at the obstacles we face. Oh, here we go again. when we're stymied by some of those obstacles that are holding us back from doing the kind of work we want to do, that are holding our students back from the opportunities that we know they deserve. So let's get into a little bit of how radical principals approach their work differently.

[03:32]

And I love that quote about how some of these approaches seem crazy until the day that they're considered brilliant. You know, take us into some of the specifics there.

[03:42] SPEAKER_01:

So there's a slight off-ramp here that I just want to refer to in relationship to this. So, there's this story that I read about when I was doing some of this research about how to be radical that is about a truck that's wedged in under a bridge. And this truck is sitting there, and there's all this traffic piling up, and people are getting angry, and the police are there, and the fireman's there, and everybody's trying to figure out, do we just push this truck through? Do we back it up? What kind of damage are we going to do? Do we somehow wedge something in between the two of them?

[04:13]

And all of these scientists and researchers and police and people that are supposedly experts are there. And this little boy tugs on his father's sleeve and says, dad, dad, and he says, hang on a second, hang on a second, son. Finally, the kid says, why don't we just let the air out of the tires? And with that, they said, oh my gosh, that is so simple and yet so sensible. And this is part of the problem that has happened sometimes, I think, in all good intentions, institutionalized, thinking in schools in ways that, while we're trying to actually help kids that are at a disadvantage, we're actually creating bigger damage or barriers. So this is something called lateral thinking, by the way.

[04:55]

And lateral thinking is nothing new. It's something that's been around for... A few decades. But it's one of those things that we quickly forget about and it just gets buried in some great research article.

[05:05]

So I try to revive some of these ideas because most of these ideas are nothing new. And there's no silver bullet here. It's about consolidating these ideas and then reframing our perspective. So that's just one example.

[05:17] SPEAKER_00:

One of the things you talk about in the book that surprised me a little bit is just timing. You know, we consider the timing of everything to be either too fast or too slow. You know, we have so much coming at us and, you know, so much to do, so much to keep up with. How can we use timing to really optimize how we handle things?

[05:36] SPEAKER_01:

So I think every administrator who's been caught up in a cycle of just reacting and getting wrapped up in, you know, The crisis of the day, or the mini-crisis of the day, will appreciate this. So Dan Pink's this great author, who I'm sure you've heard of, and he wrote about... It was simply called When, I think, his book. It just came out within the last year or two.

[05:58]

And he talks especially about optimizing timing, and he does a great job of pulling in research and showing why this makes so much sense. And it's really simple. Basically, a person's emotions, and I want you to frame this in the context of a leader, particularly a radical leader, We all run through cyclical patterns that are so predictable that it's actually surprising. And knowing the way we function will help us do our best work. So, most of us, for instance, not all of us, but most of us, and he gets through the different kind of personality types, because you've heard of, like, the night owl. I'm not a night owl.

[06:29]

I like to go to bed early and I like to get up in the morning and I'm like most people where I'm most efficient and creative in the morning. So the worst thing I can do is pick up my phone and start looking at either social media or that angry email from a parent or whatever the situation is. I need to spend about an hour trying to be my most creative self. The reason that's so important is because we're actually able to give so much more back to the kids who need it the most when we're coming up with these creative ideas. So he goes through both a moonshot of long-term timing, and he also talks about this micro analysis of timing, even within minutes and days, simple things like just gaining, regaining perspective. And then of course, there's things like restoration and rest.

[07:12]

And we sort of all hear about how important restoration and rest is now. There's a lot of good evidence out there that's, that's being shared, but we really need to remember how important it is to just sometimes walk away from a really intense situation. For five minutes and literally walk because, of course, when we move the body, we move the mind and we're starting to sort of reframe everything so that we have a better perspective. How many times have people say, you know, the old adage of count to ten? And that's so important in a radical principles day because he or she is then able to really start to focus more on the energy that needs to be provided to these kids who need it and not on the latest and greatest reaction. He doesn't talk about Dan Pink this in his book, but I tie it into his work, and that is the idea that a lot of times people will come to us because they trust our answer and we're the leader, and it's only natural to say, hey, are you okay with this?

[08:01]

Or, hey, I have a problem I'm not really sure about. And I gotta tell you something. Most of that is, frankly, minutiae. And it's things that those individuals that are seeking an answer, and this is your staff, your teachers, your secretaries, whoever...

[08:16]

your security, most of those things don't need to be dealt with by you and should not be, by the way. So now you're maximizing your time because what's happening is most often, how many times have we heard when we were too busy or wrapped up or just decided to remove ourselves so that we could be creative that, oh, don't worry about that problem I emailed you about. I figured it out. Now, here's why that's so beneficial. You're preserving your time for the, to address these challenges and inequities. And at the same time, you're teaching your staff problem-solving skills that they really need to master.

[08:47]

So that as a school community, you're also creating a very much more multiplier kind of a leadership style. And of course, I get into multiplier and diminisher leaders in the book, too. So I just want to touch on this, if you don't mind. I'll keep going because it's connected. Multiplier leaders are those that Recognize the creativity around them, and they put their ego aside, and they embrace it, and they bring it in, and they don't let great ideas die in the corner of a building. And that happens too often when leaders let their ego get in the way.

[09:20]

And that's a dangerous thing to happen. It's very easy, it's human nature for our ego to get in the way. Because, especially for leaders who've gotten in that position, often because they use their ego to get... you know, with confidence into that position, but it's so important to recognize humility and bring people and ideas in, because not one person can come up with great ideas to solve the problems of institutional inequities, but everybody around me who has creative ideas can.

[09:47]

We have to be able to let them know it's okay to take risks, it's actually okay to make errors, because guess what? The payoff is too enormous, and we can't avoid it. We have to embrace that. Diminish your leaders. You see a lot of them in politics today. They have an ego.

[10:01]

They're narcissistic. They have to prove to everybody that everyone is less, you know, equal to them. They're inferior. They don't, they're not as smart. They're just around because they're, you know, they're in an official position to protect this leader, and the leader's not taking or embracing those ideas. It's surprising how often this happens in schools.

[10:19]

When here we are just trying to address and support the needs of families and students. So, we have to be able to recognize that there... And we all, by the way, have times when we are a diminisher leader. I'm guilty of that as much as anybody.

[10:32]

But I'm more conscious of it. And this book helps really unravel all that and helps the leader to say, okay, I need to be more of this multiplier leader and support the genius and creativity of people who often have better ideas than I do.

[10:45] SPEAKER_00:

On the one hand, you know, if we recognize that, you know, the buck stops here, we're, we're ultimately accountable and responsible for many things. You know, it's understandable that we would want to be involved at every stage or every decision, but, you know, to some extent we can't, and we're holding other people back. You know, there, there are ideas out there. within our schools that are not coming from us that would make things better. So it's kind of a wasted opportunity to insist, you know, all the ideas have to come from me, the solution has to come from me. Talk to us a little bit about the connection to, you know, staff retention, staff loyalty, keeping people around, developing people, and all that.

[11:22] SPEAKER_01:

So, loyalty is such an important part of getting people on board, and it helps to address school culture. I've been fortunate to be... I love what I do, and I've been a principal for 17 years. And people say to me, why don't you go into central office, or how long are you going to do this?

[11:35]

And I don't really care, because I just love it. I feel like I'm able to do this. But this year was a real test for me, because what happened was, we moved from a middle school, 6-7, grade 6-7, 1,400 kids, big school, to a 5-6 upper elementary school. And That may not sound like a big deal, but it's 100% new students and 60% new staff to me. They weren't new staff to the district. But they didn't know me as a direct leader that they'd ever had to work with.

[12:02]

And I just had somebody come up to me today and say, you know, I just really want to thank you because you give us a chance to say, hey, my life is more important and that this is important, but what we do here is second. And I always say this to people, that, remember, this is the second most important thing you do. I'm not saying it's not important. But the first most important thing is taking care of ourselves. And these are the little ways when someone says, I have a problem with my kid and I need to get over there. And is it okay if I do leave the last 15 minutes?

[12:28]

Don't nickel and dime people for their time or anything that's going on in their life. Because what's going to happen is the moment you say, don't worry, go take care of your kid. I want to make sure that they're okay. They will remember that tenfold. And you start to build these relations. that people begin to trust you, and it feels like a family, and it should be a family, because we're all working together in the school community, and kids rely on and look up to us.

[12:53]

It's sort of like having parents who are getting along very well, versus those that are arguing all the time. Kids have a direct response to that, and so it's so significant. The other reason this is important is whenever you're managing transitions, and William Bridges talks about managing transitions, and this area called the neutral zone, which is the nexus between what was and what will be, and teachers and faculty and families and everybody's very uncomfortable with this neutral zone, and when we try to get them into this space where they're willing to take a leap to that next idea, and if they trust us, and we've taken the time to build bit by bit that trust, they'll go to the moon for us, and they'll take that risk. And so, then, suddenly, they can see that, hopefully, this new change is a positive one. If it's not, then we bring multiplier leaders in, and they come up with great ideas, and we make some adjustments.

[13:43]

So, that's the importance of trust, which is so huge.

[13:46] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know, that really reminds me of something that happened when I was a teacher. Being seen as a whole person and not just as my job title, you know, like, I'm a person who teaches science classes, well, I'm also a person, and one day we got a, I got a phone call during the school day that the house next door to ours was on fire, our house might have been on fire, so I said to my boss, you know, here's what's going on, she said, go home, like, go now, go deal with it, we'll Don't worry about it. We'll cover your classes, whatever. And that meant so much to me because, you know, just the recognition that a personal need trumped, you know, whatever I was doing in the classroom at that moment. Like, that wasn't something I was asking for, but she offered. And I think kind of paradoxically, when we're not just all business with people, we recognize that people are people with whole lives, then the trust for the work stuff goes through the roof, just goes way up.

[14:39]

Turned out the house wasn't burning down, and the one next door was, and did a little bit of damage to ours, but it was, uh, fortunately not too bad, but it just meant a ton to know that, you know, my life outside of school mattered enough to disrupt the school day if it needed to, and just, uh, just had a tremendous amount of respect for my principal. Talk to us a little bit about the reply twice strategy. I'm intrigued by that.

[15:04] SPEAKER_01:

So, one of the challenges that prevents leaders from being radical and really moving to the next level and moving the bar in their schools is getting wrapped up in a combination of either negative social media and or email exchanges that are, I call them email wars. And this is when there's a misunderstanding, most often by a parent or something like that, and they fire off an email and say, this happened today, and I can't believe you didn't do this, and blah, and they go on and on and on. So, no matter how accurate or inaccurate that is, The problem is, is that when we're receiving an email like this, our guard gets up, and we get, you know, it's human nature, we get defensive, we're ready for a fight. Uh, we get those primal senses kicking into gear. And it's so important to be able to take a step back from that, and to simply say, I'm really sorry that, you know, you're feeling this way regarding this situation, and I'd like to help you resolve it.

[15:59]

Which is simple customer service. That's the first part. The second part is, Sometimes, especially in this day and age, and I talked about polarization in politics, we're also seeing this being, unfortunately, spewed into schools. You will get someone who's just looking to pick a fight, and you're seeing more of this, because they feel so polarized about their viewpoints. And so, whatever the issue is, they may fire back, no, I'm really upset about this, and you're not going to...

[16:23]

I'm going to go to the papers, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that, or, you know, I'm going to go to the news, and... The next chance you have to respond is to get them offline. Whether this is, again, on Facebook or Twitter or email, it doesn't really matter. The point is, is that they have a digital record of what's going on and they can share this with the world.

[16:41]

But guess what? So can you. And it's so important to model the appropriate behavior by simply saying, I'd really like to help address this issue, this concern you have. How can I get in touch with you? Or why don't I, why don't we speak on the phone? Are you coming to meet with me?

[16:55]

Now, a lot of people say to me, okay, so that's a lot of time that's taken to talk to someone like this on the phone or to, I've got 15 million other things to do. We talked about optimizing time earlier. And it's so important to recognize that, actually, this saves time. And the reason is, is you're not going back and forth in this exchange. It continues to escalate. And, you know, you're getting defensive, and they're picking your words apart, and this is such common behavior in the two-dimensional space that's digital communication.

[17:25]

Instead, you're taking them offline, and when that happens, we become three-dimensional human beings to each other, and they realize we're not... almost always realize we're not so bad. And if they refuse that, you've modeled out in the digital world that you are offering a direct intervention with this person, and...

[17:43]

And experientially, people say, oh, he's offering that opportunity, or she's offering... That's a reasonable attempt, and now this person's being unreasonable. But this person is, in fact, being a reasonable person in terms of trying to address this issue. So reply only twice simply means if after the second time you've attempted, you can cease the digital correspondence because you've reached out and said, I want to take the time personally with you.

[18:10]

And Jay Baer is the person who wrote Hug Your Haters, that I found this and I loved it because he refers to customer service. And so often my ideas translate right into what we should be doing or can be doing in school. So this is just one of those great examples.

[18:24] SPEAKER_00:

I love that. And he's probably coming from the perspective of, like, dealing with online trolls if you're an online person, right?

[18:30] SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

[18:31] SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Yeah, translates so nicely because there are lots of people in our world now who, you know, want to give us a hard time. You know, maybe they have a legitimate issue, you know, related to their child. Maybe they just have an opinion that they got off of TV and wanted directed at us. And I feel like the willingness to set aside time in your workday to deal with an issue really challenges people to get off the couch if they're basically just, you know, sitting at home, kind of armchair quarterbacking our job. You know, if they really do need to come and meet with us, giving them that opportunity, but taking the wind out of their sails for the fight that they're looking for, you know, the back and forth argument, something they can screenshot and post on social media, that kind of thing.

[19:14] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there's a twofold advantage of this, right? The one, the first one is that we are giving them an opportunity and then showing that we're modeling really appropriate behavior as an outreach. But secondly, we're not waiting for the next anticipated exchange, which is disrupting our creative thinking and getting us into that primal mindset. And I keep talking about how when we're being radical and creative and we're institutionalizing equity instead of, and disrupting inequity, These are the ways we do it. We don't get wrapped up in these things that so easily happen in our day if we're not conscious of them and using strategies like this.

[19:49] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so many distractions from the core work. Disrupting inequities and institutionalizing equity is a major theme of the book. Talk to us a little bit more about what that looks like. Because, you know, we encounter so many frustrations, you know, we can deal with our, you know, things that are immediately within our control, you know, our, you know, preconceived ideas and biases, you know, we can address those. But often we run into things that seem like they're beyond our control. And like we were talking about earlier, we can kind of get cynical about those and say, well, what are you going to do?

[20:19]

Or we can get kind of radical. Talk to us a little bit about how that shows up in the book.

[20:24] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll give you a perfect example. So a few years back, the preschool program in the town needed to move into my school. And it was a challenge because we needed to, we needed the space. And the reason I tell this story is it's applicable to anybody today because of the power of digital access. that we have now with things like Zoom, where you can tap into a preschool. So this is an important message for anybody who's got elementary or older kids, and that is that there was this boy who was running down the hall too fast, and he was talking too loud, and teachers would wave their finger at him, and, look, that kid's doing that thing again.

[20:56]

What are you gonna do to get that kid to stop? And, of course, any pretty seasoned veteran principal knows that disciplining that same child over and over again typically does not work. In fact, it may even backfire. And what's... And yet, you have these teachers who are saying, you have to do something about this.

[21:14]

So, you're sort of caught in this mix. And you also recognize that, typically, this kid is racing too fast and talking too loud because he or she has a challenge. They're at a disadvantage, or they have a learning challenge, or a little bit of, you know, everything. And this was the case with this young man. So, he was a decent enough kid inside that we decided to take a chance and say to him, would you like to read to the preschoolers if you have a good week? And I thought he was going to laugh at me, and instead he said, sure, why not?

[21:44]

And he had a good week, and he got to go in and read, and we took pictures, and we put it on our website, and we got permission to do that, and he was suddenly changing his behavior, but there was an even bigger payoff here, and that was that the teachers who had You know, unconscious bias about this kid. We're starting to see him a little bit differently. And when he ran down the hall the next time a little too fast, they'd go up to him, instead of waving a finger at him, they'd say to him, hey, when are you reading again? And that was the thing that stopped his misbehavior. So they didn't yell at him. They didn't corner him.

[22:18]

They simply redirected him. And they learned. And they, many of them admitted to me, well, I never thought that we could change his behavior with doing something like that. So sometimes you need to do things like this. And my whole point now is, when we went into the pandemic, we had to, we called it Middles to Littles program, preschool reading. We had to move that online.

[22:38]

And we kept doing that because now the preschool has moved out. So, here's what's so great about that. Any school can find a neighborhood preschool, get some permission, work with a partner in this, and get this kind of thing going, and it works, and it starts to change teachers' perspectives, too. And that's probably even more powerful than getting the kid to behave better.

[22:57] SPEAKER_00:

Well, Mike, as people take some of these steps to disrupt inequities and distribute leadership and work with their staff, you know... Many people, especially in the principalship, feel a certain sense of isolation and loneliness, right? That, you know, everything kind of flows up to you and you're where the buck stops. And it can feel, you know, even though you're surrounded by people, people are, you know, talking with you all day, it can feel kind of lonely and feel like you need some support.

[23:22]

So what are some approaches to having that network, you know, beyond the people that you immediately work with to build that kind of resilience and support that you need as a leader?

[23:31] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, here's what's ironic about what you just asked me. And that is that you could have replaced Mastermind with, like, a 12-step program, right? And I know that sounds, again, radical, but aren't we getting the point that that's what this is all about? So, Masterminds are fabulous for a couple of reasons. First of all, we know that when networks of people who share a common language and set of concerns and ideas and challenges together...

[23:55]

They bond and they start to build support networks. So that's exactly what happens with masterminds. Just like ironically, 12 step programs, obviously for different reasons, but the idea is the same and we're starting to build these networks. The other great thing about masterminds is they're almost always either very inexpensive or free because they're very easy to connect online. And, or in other capacities. And the problem with most support programs like coaching is that it's very expensive.

[24:21]

And you see this in great organizations like Google and Amazon, where they have tons of money. Schools do not have tons of money. They're typically relying on taxes or some other budget base that's within the state. And we can't just throw that money around. So masterminds are a great way to bring people together. And the great part of this is now they start thinking creatively together, which goes back to the whole radical principles concept, and we get them away from the distractions of the day-to-day minutia and focused on energizing each other in ways that, again, optimizes their productivity and gives it back to the kids who need it the most.

[24:55] SPEAKER_00:

Mike, this is a great place to plug a book by my friend and colleague, Daniel Bauer, who's written a book called Mastermind, Unlocking Talent Within Every School Leader. So if people want to learn a little bit more about what you're talking about with masterminds and how to organize a mastermind, definitely check out Danny's book, Mastermind. Definitely a great read and very practical with how to kind of set this up and build that support for yourself. Well, Mike, to kind of draw things to a close here, one additional thing that you talk about in the book is the power of small wins. What does that mean?

[25:27] SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so a lot of my ideas are things that we knew worked in corporate or, you know, successful settings that I talked about with Google as an example of a thriving company. Love them or hate them, they're successful. And one of the things that's really important to recognize, there was a Harvard study a few years back, a Harvard Business Review study, where they looked at small wins and how that could affect the success of both companies and their individuals. And the payoff was massive. So what you saw was little incremental milestones were creating these much more massive payouts because what happens is exponentially these things start to spill over into so many other areas. So this is such an important topic that I get into in the book.

[26:11]

particularly for at-risk and disadvantaged children, because what happens is we need to find structures and support systems that start to show them in a very concrete way, and you can use, you know, things like spreadsheets and graphs and everything, where they were and where they are. And sometimes you see this in, like, portfolio work in schools, but I think we have to be much more deliberate about this, particularly with disadvantaged children, because what happens is they start to overcome some of the challenges and challenging things that happen as a result of already being at a disadvantage and, again, some of that subconscious bias and some of the institutional bureaucracy that occurs, they're able to actually work around that and really start to accelerate their own success and, more importantly, gain confidence so that they continue to demonstrate that. There is one other thing I just thought of that I thought was interesting I wanted to mention. And this comes out of Dan Coyle's work a few years back.

[27:03]

He did a study where he wanted to find out about kids' success in general. And basically... He learned that one phrase, and I'm not going to get it exact, but it's the idea, not the exact phrase, was, I know you can do this, and you're capable of it, and I believe in you, and I'm going to...

[27:20]

I can't wait to see how successful you'll be. So this ties into, you know, really setting the stage for small wins. And what they found was that 40% of And I'll get to why this matters in a minute. White children were showing a jump in their success rate. Now, here's why I mentioned that first. Because there was a 320% jump for African-American students.

[27:42]

So you can see... And someone says, well, why was there such a bigger jump? And quite frankly, that's because, historically, African-American children, again, we get back to subconscious bias, not intentional, but it's important to note that we may be characterizing them In a way, without even realizing it. And I'm not just talking about, you know, you and me, but everybody.

[28:01]

All I wanted to say about that is, is that because they didn't have as many opportunities for that kind of success, when we're building in small wins, we're setting the stage that's even higher for disadvantaged kids. And there's nothing more opportunistic for children that need it the most than that.

[28:17] SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because it's evidence, right? It's not just platitudes. It's not just you can do it. It's demonstrating that they can do it. It's going from words to actual results. And I think, you know, people believe their own results more than they believe nice words that we might want to motivate them with.

[28:32]

So the book is Radical Principles, a Blueprint for Long-Term Equity and Stability at School. Mike Gaskill, if people want to find you online and learn more about your work or follow you on social media, where are some of the best places for them to go?

[28:45] SPEAKER_01:

Best spot is Gaskell, M. Gaskell, G-A-S-K-E-L-L, M. Gaskell, same spelling, uh, for the second part of that, and that's at Twitter, and I also have a website, mikesmicrominute.com, but I think the Twitter is definitely the best location. Gaskell, M. Gaskell on Twitter, wonderful.

[29:04] SPEAKER_00:

Mike, thank you so much for joining me again on Principal Center Radio. It's been a pleasure. My pleasure, too.

[29:08] Announcer:

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