[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:13] SPEAKER_00:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Peter Marshall. Peter has more than 35 years of experience as an educator, having served as a teacher, school administrator, and system leader in Ontario. And he's worked in leadership and staff development, as well as opening a new school in his final tenure as a principal. And he currently serves as a Solution Tree Assessment Centre associate, and is the author of Today's Teachers, Tomorrow's Leaders, a guide to identifying and developing future administrators.
[00:45]
Peter, welcome to Principal Center Radio.
[00:48] SPEAKER_01:
Well, thank you, Justin. I appreciate the invitation to come on and speak with you.
[00:53] SPEAKER_00:
I think this is such an important topic because we can never be caught off guard by a leadership vacancy with no sense of who might be ready to step up into that position. In, you know, from your vantage point as a former school and system leader, how do you think about the broad strokes of the issue of preparing and developing future administrators?
[01:17] SPEAKER_01:
Well, Justin, when I was in my system role, that's when I really got deep in the weeds about leadership and what it meant and leadership succession and what we should be looking for within our people to take on this really important job. You see, I was a school principal before I went into that role, and I knew from that role I wanted to go and retire from being a school principal once again. I wanted to interact with families and with students and with staff. I didn't want to retire from a system position. And...
[01:45]
I just, I realized not only the impact that that role has, but we want our people to do well in the role because it's so important, but we also want them to be well. And it's that preparation. I love the phrase that, you know, it's the preparation that builds confidence. So if we can help our people before going into the role, because it's really difficult to describe the role when you're not in the role. And if we can prepare our people for the role prior to getting into the role and just help them as much as possible, then not only are they going to be successful, but they're going to be really fulfilled with the work that they're doing, as I was. And I wanted good people to experience the same joy in the job that I did.
[02:29] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. So there's a system-level rationale for having people who are ready to step up into leadership roles. Certainly, there's a need to develop a pipeline. Talk to us a little bit about the individual side when people are maybe thinking about it, or maybe they're not thinking about becoming administrators, and they're being encouraged. Like, I remember one day sitting in the faculty lounge as a middle school teacher, and one of my colleagues, I think the woodshop teacher, said to me, you know, you'd be a good principal. And it, like, it was just out of the blue.
[02:57]
It was apropos of nothing, and I was kind of surprised. I said, like, what? What? I'm not interested in being a principal. We hadn't even been talking. He just said it kind of out of the blue.
[03:06]
That little remark got me thinking about it. What do you think is going on for people as they make that type of decision, or maybe take a step toward that type of decision?
[03:19] SPEAKER_01:
Well, the story that you just described is probably the most common. Most people that I've spoken to while researching the book had the tap on the shoulder. There was somebody that came up to them and said something. I've certainly met those people that have been interested in the role and wanting to elevate to that role or progress to that role from an early beginning. But one of the ways that I start off the book and one of the ways that I've started off the workshop and presentation about the book is it's a very common leadership activity. I also...
[03:48]
looked after principal training programs here in Ontario. So one of our organization that gives accreditations to principals, gives them their accreditation so that they can become principals. Those qualification courses I instructed for many years. And one of the activities was for people to really seriously think about those that inspired them in the past. And when we think about the people, when you think about that person that tapped you on the shoulder, what was it about them that motivate... motivated you and inspired you.
[04:20]
And within the book, I start by saying, now, imagine a few years out from now, and somebody's doing that activity, and they're thinking about you. What is it about you as the leader that you became inspirational and you became the model of what somebody looked like or what somebody acted like when they were in a position of, you know, added responsibility? Now, although this book is really for administrators, that's the main target audience, it's in all leaderships of education, because I believe those ways of being, those traits that people have that demonstrate that they Potentially have the ability and also the desire to go forward and do this. Like, what did you show this person that made them want to come up and tap you on the shoulder? You must have been demonstrating something, right?
[05:11]
So, I was starting to think deeply about the people that I interacted with. You know, I became very interested in leadership, and then when I went and opened a new school, that attracted lots of wonderful people. So, not only did I have an intake of fabulous teachers from all across the district, I also had people that were interested in beginning that process of building a new school and the mission and vision value work that was involved. So, I was surrounded by excellence, right? But I started to notice qualities that those people had, and that...
[05:45]
led me to some of the writing in the book where I identify... I picked 10 ways of being that really stood out when I close my eyes and think about the people. Like, Justin, in the acknowledgement of the book, I mention 11 names. There are 11 teachers that came from my final school that are now associate principals, assistant principals in our system.
[06:12]
And six of my vice principals... in those seven years are now principals themselves, right? So, yes, they were wonderful people before, and, you know, I'd like to believe that no matter where they were in their career, the same things would have happened. But while they were with me, what did we do together?
[06:29]
What did I provide for them? What opportunities presented themselves that allowed them to progress as leaders and move forward?
[06:39] SPEAKER_00:
Well, Peter, it strikes me that there are two related but distinct issues when it comes to people who, you know, might be considering moving into an administrative role in the future. One is their ambition. And we've been discussing, you know, that sometimes people don't have that ambition until somebody taps them on the shoulder and says, hey, you know, you should be thinking about this. And in other cases, people go into teaching thinking, I want to be a principal in X number of years. Like, that's an ambition that they start with. So I'm interested in your focus, rather than on that ambition, but on the ways of being.
[07:12]
First of all, what do you mean by a way of being, and what are some of those 10 that you've identified in the book?
[07:18] SPEAKER_01:
Well, I started talking about attributes and traits, and as I was writing it, when I pictured the people in my mind, some of it was just difficult to articulate. And if you were to stop me on the street and said, you know, what is it about that particular person that made you, you know, really want to mentor and support them? And I'd probably look at you and say, well, they just had a certain way about them. It was in everything that they did. It's how they interacted with other staff. It's how they made connections with students.
[07:50]
You know, it's how they reached out to the actual school community. Going back to a past point, there was an important study done, and it was by Grissom, Wu, and Bartanan. It came out in 2020, right? It was part of the Wallace Report. And they talked about...
[08:08]
What are the characteristics that we can define in people early in their career that said that they may be successful in an administration or a leadership role? And the overwhelming quality was the fact that they were successful as teachers. They were really good teachers and really understood that craft. Now, it's very true what you said about sort of the motivation to do it as well as the skill. I mean, there are skills and knowledge...
[08:34]
attributes that are required in order to go into administration, right? It's a complex job, and there's lots of things to consider, and there's lots of balls juggling in the air every single day. But there also is a passion and a desire to do it. And although that passion and desire may wane on particular days, it has to stay optimistic, and it has to stay, you know, at a high level because of the people that you're serving and the people that you're supporting. So, the author Adam Grant, who is very popular now, talks about successful people have ability, motivation, and opportunity. So, really, my ways of being were looking at ability...
[09:15]
And looking at motivation, and then I provided the opportunity. The motivation and the desire you see every single day, as I said, in the work that they're doing, right? And the knowledge and skills come with them getting, you know, the opportunity to do things, that job-embedded learning, right? Like, I think it's really important for people that are transitioning into leadership that they get...
[09:39]
sort of personalized professional development, because all of those people that I'm thinking about, some of them were highly gifted at communication skills, and others needed work on that. Others were excellent problem solvers. So, there's two ways of being right there. Are they an effective communicator, and do they consider all avenues that they need to communicate, right? So, communication isn't just you and I speaking with each other, it's about...
[10:02]
Who needs to have this information? In what order do you give this information? You know, how much do you share with your school community? How much do you share with your staff? So, there's some individuals that already have that skill and show it as a teacher. They don't require as much emphasis in that area as somebody else.
[10:21]
So, the professional development needs to be individualized for what the person actually requires. So, in those 10 ways of being in the book, There are templates where an individual can go through and work with somebody to identify what are the areas where we need to increase your skills and knowledge in that area, and what are the areas where you and I have to really discuss the importance of this, because I don't see it demonstrated... as much as I should potentially see it as your classroom. So, in those chapters on the ways of being, there are look-fors.
[11:00]
I've identified 20 look-fors that we should be seeing in our teachers to show us that they demonstrate knowledge and skill, but also passion and motivation. If you and I were working together on this because you were interested in a pathway to administration, we could handpick the individual chapters, you could self-identify, you want help with this particular aspect, or feedback from me as a mentor. I said, you know what, let's really concentrate on this one. You know, one could be... One is an advocate for all students.
[11:32]
You know, all means all. And the particular school where I was in was very diverse. And my teaching staff was not reflective of the community that we served. So, although there were some excellent teaching practices and the people that came there were highly skilled, they didn't know the community. They didn't know the students. They didn't know their celebrations.
[11:55]
They didn't know, um... You know, their preferences and the ways that their families operate and the community operates. So, there was a big learning curve in that particular aspect for it. So, going through the ways of being with you, we can pick out individual ones, or we could start at the beginning of the book, and you can self-evaluate and say which are the ones that you really want to tackle.
[12:17] SPEAKER_00:
And to what extent are these ways of being teachable versus kind of intrinsic qualities? Like, are they things that someone could look at and say, you know what, this is not a strength of mine, but I could develop in that area, versus are they more selection factors where you realize this person has the potential, this person doesn't?
[12:34] SPEAKER_01:
Great question. There's lots of conversation right now about particular ways of being or traits. In Ontario, we have something called the Ontario Leadership Framework, and it was a... Lots of research behind it, and one of the aspects of the Ontario Leadership Framework is something that we call personal leadership resources, and within that is the research behind that things such as resiliency...
[12:59]
Right? Like...
[13:29]
If I'm walking around like Eeyore all day, then the tone in my school, the culture in my school is going to be... Right? Like, I become the weather pattern. Right?
[13:38]
So people feed off of me as a, you know, a visual public person walking through the school and around the school about how we're going to interact with each other. We all... We all go to places where we see staff interact with us and they're happy and they're excited to be there and they're happy to assist you. And that's such a different feeling than we go into other places and the people don't seem so happy to be there.
[14:04]
So I think all the traits that I've identified at the beginning of every single chapter, there's the research behind. So I start every single chapter with the research behind why it's there, why I selected it. And this is a good point for me to say, you may disagree with my 10, And the templates are there for you to generate your own of what you believe would be really important. And that's really key in certain districts because a school in another part of our country, a school in the United States away from Canada, they may have different things that they are looking for within their leadership group. So I'm not saying that the 10 ways of being that I identified are the be-all and end-all. I would like to think that education, there's way more than 10.
[14:51]
There's a lot more than 10 that we really have to consider and develop. So, after going through the research and sharing with people why I selected what I selected, I then go through the look fors so that you can picture the person that you are considering mentoring and working with And picture them in their classroom, picture them while they're working with other adults on leadership teams, and you're actually charting or plotting each one of those look fors on a matrix. And then that matrix determines your next leadership move, because certain people need different things.
[15:30] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, absolutely.
[15:48]
They're essentially telling people, like, I definitely see the value of that, but they're also kind of telling people how to suck up, you know, how to pander to the hiring committee and not necessarily getting the characteristic that they're looking for. They're just getting basically marketing about the characteristic that they're looking for because the candidates know what people want to hear. So how do you think about that issue? Because certainly I want the real thing, not just to be told, you know, what I'm looking for. You know, I don't want people just telling me what I want to hear when I'm engaging in any kind of leadership development or screening or hiring. So, yeah, how do you think about that?
[16:20] SPEAKER_01:
I'm really glad you brought that up because it was one of the central pushes in the book. You see, we can have tremendous selection process and interview process. Whatever within a district is used in order to find our future leaders, it's not the same as me being a principal in a school and being with that person every day. Right? Like, I'm with that person on their very best days. I'm on their...
[16:45]
I'm with them there when they're going through a tough time. I'm with them when they're going through things that are outside the school. Right? Like, we can predict difficult times for people. They may be caring for older parents. They may have young children of their own.
[16:58]
So we're going to see them through all the highs and lows, which is not seen, no matter how good the selection process is. And there's some fabulous selection processes out there. But as the on-site administrator, no one knows the people inside the building better than I do. And good assessment with children is showing them the target, showing them the learning goal, and making it really apparent, this is what we're going after. I would not be...
[17:27]
I would not be an effective administrator if I didn't make clear to my entire staff, this is what we stand for, this is what we're doing, this is what we want to see in every single classroom. So, those look fors are things that we should be seeing in every single classroom. We should be seeing in absolutely everyone in the building, not just the people that are interested in administration. My look-fors are essentially saying, you better be seeing these, right? Because the people who are un...
[17:53]
This job's too important to have people who's unknowledgeable and people who are uncaring. So if people are in that quadrant where they're not motivated to improve, they don't have passion to continue to learn, and they don't have skills and knowledge and areas that are really important, then when those people approach us, we need to be really honest with them and say, you're not ready yet, right? We need to see an increase in both of those metrics.
[18:20] SPEAKER_00:
I want to go back to something we talked about earlier, which is about good administrators being good teachers first. Did you say, like, there were no exceptions to that? Pretty much in every case, people who became good administrators had been good teachers?
[18:33] SPEAKER_01:
Writing the book and thinking about the wonderful people that I interacted with, once again, many of them came to me fully polished. I don't want to suggest for a minute that I was the magic sauce. These people were brilliant to begin with. But, yes, they were all fabulous teachers because...
[18:50]
As fabulous teachers, it wasn't just in front of students, you know, during a particular lesson. It was the way they interacted with their colleagues. I mean, one of the difficult parts in administration is that sudden realization that your classroom is now the adults, in a sense. And, you know, if our teachers have difficulty interacting with other adults and other peers, some of which those peers are more talented than they are, better teachers, like, how do they deal with all those particular issues? There's too many teachers who close the door and want to be on their own. And we've heard it been said that, you know, teaching is not for independent contractors, right?
[19:33]
They're part of the school, they're part of the system, they're part of the district. We have goals and ideas of that we are working towards. I don't want the isolated teacher. And one of the sections in the book talks about those individuals who are highly skilled, highly knowledgeable, but they're going through something at this particular moment. And it could be personal. But their motivation to share, their motivation to grow, their motivation to spread the good things that are happening in their classroom is really low at that particular moment.
[20:04]
And we can't have that happening in a school. Like, we're all accountable for the talents that are in our school. And if I've got a really talented teacher that's doing amazing things in the classroom, that needs to be shared. There's lots of people that would benefit from learning what's happening in that classroom and why students are achieving outcomes. So, how do we work with that individual who's highly skilled and we have to increase their motivation? Which is very different than...
[20:33]
I don't want to generalize and say a beginning teacher, but it's... The picture's clearer when we think about the beginning teacher that's super excited, they're the energizer bunny, they come in every single day, they want to learn, they want to learn, but their motivation to get better is really strong, but they don't have the right skills and knowledge yet. And the book talks about making sure that we put them in front of the right people. Like, who's talking in their ear?
[20:58]
Who's sharing practice with them? Who are they listening to in the staff room? Where are they getting their professional development? Well, those two individuals...
[21:07]
When I'm mentoring and I'm supporting them moving forward, not just in leadership, but to be better at what they do, they require different techniques. They need different next steps.
[21:19] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, and possibly even some different colleagues to collaborate with. Like, I'm thinking about several amazing teachers that I worked with who, you know, if I looked at who's in their ear, who is their nearest neighbor, who is their, you know, maybe not teaching partner, but, you know, pretty close, same team, same department. If you have a really amazing person who is clearly on an upward trajectory, and their closest colleague is somebody who's really burned out and really cynical and has one foot out the door... That might be a situation where we need to make a change or they're going to make a change on their own.
[21:50]
And I've lost people due to that very situation where they're like, look, I like this school, but I need different colleagues and I need new opportunities to work with people who are going to help me be my best. And yeah, that's a key thing to keep an eye on.
[22:00] SPEAKER_01:
Each chapter of the book, Justin, has two school examples. So take the way of being, like, so we'll take the way of being a problem solver and having situational awareness. The chapter ends with two real-life examples of what that looks like in practice and where there's leadership opportunities in there to help somebody understand the importance of it, so increase their desire and passion, and lots of sightings of great resources that are also available out there to learn more. Because the book can't be, here's the best resources to improve communication. And I can't go, I can't have a chapter on communication that is, you know, really, really lengthy, but I can mention other resources that people can go to, and readers I know will have access to lots of tools and things that they've had in the past.
[22:52]
You know, that teacher that you talked about, that burned-out teacher, the example I came across in research is, it's extremely important for that person to see their impact, right? So, Justin, if you're the burned-out teacher, and you've got really great skills and really great knowledge, and I want that spread, but right now, it, like, you're not sharing, you're not contributing to group meetings and things like that, I've got to get in your ear, or I've got to get other people in your ear, and you need to see how you made a difference in the lives of somebody else. If I can get a young teacher to come up to you and say, hey, Justin... I really loved how you talked about this at the last meeting.
[23:29]
I tried it in my classroom, and here's what happened. That's really gonna get motivation going. So, one of the things we did in our schools, we had in-school field trips. So, in the middle of our meetings, we would all pack up, and we would go to someone's classroom. Now, they knew we were coming. Right?
[23:47]
But so many of our teachers don't get into other people's teaching spots. So, here I've got... Here I've got Justin, who may be a little bit down in the dumps lately and not really feeling it. Right?
[23:59]
But through good communication and building a relationship with you and having trust, it doesn't happen immediately. I convince you to let us come into your room. Right? And people start asking questions about, what exactly is this? How are you using this room? And you talk about, a little bit, about what's happening in this room, and where some troubles may exist.
[24:20]
And it's really powerful, because people then leave the room knowing what it is, and then if I ever hear anything from somebody else, or because I'm doing my walkabouts, I see something in someone else's classroom that I knew came from you, I'm sending that person to you. I'm sending that person to you to say, hey, Justin, I did this in my classroom and look what it did. That, those people who have high skills but are losing motivation, they need to see how they can make an impact. And when they do make an impact, that does improve their, their passion.
[24:56] SPEAKER_00:
I think that's so powerful when leaders notice things that maybe teachers don't even notice that they're doing and don't notice the impact that they're having. That can just be so renewing and so refreshing to hear that you're having that impact. I wonder, Peter, if we could close by talking about the scenario where you as a leader see the potential in someone, but they don't see it or they are not interested. Like, I mean, I had great colleagues that I worked with who said, never in a million years would I leave the classroom. Like, they could have been great administrators. I think they had all the skills they needed to.
[25:27]
But they said, you know what? I only want to work with kids. I don't want to, you know... And they were good colleagues.
[25:30]
They collaborated well, co-taught with other people. They said, you know, like, I don't want to be in charge of adults. I'm not doing that. Not in a million years for a million dollars. How do you think about that reaction when somebody says that? Like, are they always right when they say that, or should we kind of keep pushing?
[25:44]
How do you think about developing people? Because, you know, a lot of people don't have that in mind, you know, to move into administration. Um, but they may be some of our best potential candidates. So, yeah, what do you think about that?
[25:56] SPEAKER_01:
I love how you finished that question because you said it. They might be our very best candidates. So, uh, to go back, how did they ever develop that attitude? What happened in their teaching career where they looked at the job and saw that it was not appealing? Right? So, when we run our leadership programs, when we do things at our board and our district, same idea as on a staff.
[26:20]
Who's talking at these people? The people that are doing the qualification courses, what are they saying about the job? How are they presenting it? They see me every single day. Do I look content? Do I look happy?
[26:34]
Do I look like, um, I'm doing something that I'm passionate about? And contrast that to down the street, different school, wherever you want to go, and the administrators walking around like they'd rather be in 15 other different places. They can't wait for a break to come up. I think it's what we model, and I think it's what we show. So, it's unfortunate that that person is feeling that way, and we should respect their wishes. I do believe, though, that if we continually see that they continually show that they are really showing excellence as a teacher, that tap on the shoulder is really powerful.
[27:10]
Have you ever considered, or have you ever thought about, right? And I think when people get a taste of things, so going back to that ability, motivation, opportunity, right? They've never had the opportunity to lead So, looking for professional activity that they can lead, that they can generate, that they can do things that I think it's fulfilling. And I think once they feel what it's like to impact others and to be in that lead role, because that's the hard part, right? Leading other adults. And the hope is that person that says, no way, never in a million years, I'm not doing it.
[27:49]
Well, maybe the classroom is right for them. Because they are excellent and you would want them in front of students. There's nothing more impactful than an amazing teacher. I'm just saying that administrators are also impactful. And how do we show that we are? And how do we show that this is desirable?
[28:04]
Someone once described to me is that when you're a teacher, the continuum between your very best day... and a really difficult day, that's a continuum that you understand that you're gonna float back and forth between those two extremes. And if we have optimism and resiliency, we understand there's gonna be good days and bad days. When you become an administrator, the same thing exists, but I just think the continuum's wider.
[28:29]
When I became an administrator, my most challenging days, my most difficult days were way more challenging and way more difficult than I ever experienced as a teacher. But I have to tell you, my most rewarding days, my most successful days, my proudest days were way more than being a classroom teacher because of the impact that you have for the number of people. So, the continuum is the same. the width of that continuum, the degree of that continuum is what's different when you move into administration. And we just have to spend more time celebrating the positive end of that continuum instead of having people see or experience or believe it's just the negative end of the continuum.
[29:10] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. And, Peter, as I look through the ten ways of being, things like an advocate for all students, an effective communicator, a goal setter who uses data, knowledgeable of effective teaching, optimistic, present, a problem solver with situational awareness, a relationship builder, like, those are all things that, even if we're developing in those areas and somebody says, I'm not going to become an administrator, I am going to stay in the classroom, well, that's fantastic. You know, that person can continue to develop all those traits and will become an even more effective teacher as a result. I really appreciate the way you've loaded this book with tools and guides and structures for identifying and developing people who can fill that leadership pipeline. So the book is Today's Teachers, Tomorrow's Leaders, a guide to identifying and developing future administrators. Peter, if people want to learn more about your work or get in touch with you, where's the best place for them to go?
[30:04] SPEAKER_01:
Well, my website is petermarshallconsulting.com. Also on Gmail, the exact same address, so petermarshallconsulting at gmail.com. Contact information, I believe, is also in the book, and contact information is also through Solution Tree on their author's page.
[30:22] SPEAKER_00:
Well, Peter, thank you so much for joining me on Principal Center Radio.
[30:24] SPEAKER_01:
It's been a pleasure. Justin, really appreciate meeting you and having an opportunity to talk about this, and I enjoyed our time together very much.
[30:32] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
