[00:01] Announcer:
Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Bader. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.
[00:14] SPEAKER_01:
I'm your host, Justin Bader, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Shauna Rosenzweig. Shauna is the CEO of Campfire, the national youth development organization founded in 1910 as Campfire Girls. Campfire runs before and after school programs, day and overnight camps, and outdoor education programs across the country.
[00:32] Announcer:
And now, our feature presentation.
[00:33] SPEAKER_01:
Shawna, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Justin.
[00:55]
Well, I've been familiar with your organization, Campfire, or formerly Campfire USA, or a long time ago, Campfire Boys and Girls, or Campfire Girls. But, uh, tell us a little bit about your organization and what you do there.
[01:07] SPEAKER_00:
So at Campfire, we know growing up is hard, right? And especially hard right now for young people. And so we really focus on, uh, three core things, uh, connecting young people to the outdoors, connecting them to others, and connecting them to their selves. So providing opportunities for young people to, again, be building a different perception of themselves or others, uh, to be supporting their well-being, uh, in out-of-school time spaces. So...
[01:32]
Uh, you can find Campfire programs during the school year, at after-school programs, before-school programs. We also partner with schools, uh, to be in the classroom, uh, during the day as well, and on recess. Um, and then, uh, during the summer and school breaks, you can find us, uh, day camps, overnight camps, uh, outdoor education as well.
[01:52] SPEAKER_01:
As a kid who went to camp, as a kid who was in, you know, various camping-type activities, and as a principal who had a campfire after-school program on-site at my elementary school in Seattle, I'm, you know, a big fan of this kind of thing. Tell us a little bit about how you got involved in this work and ultimately became CEO of the organization.
[02:12] SPEAKER_00:
So, I loved working with kids all through, you know, middle school, high school. I was babysitting. I was, you know, when looking to make a little extra money, was working, you know, day camps and after-school programs, uh, through our local Parks and Rec program. And I thought the way you work with kids was to become a teacher. So, that's actually what I had planned to do and what I had studied, uh, all through college. And really, by happenstance, uh, ended up spending some time right after college, uh, working for a program in Maine called Seeds of Peace that takes young people from different regions and conflict around the world and brings them to an overnight camp where they spend three weeks not only doing all the fun activities that come with a traditional kind of camping program, but also working through some very intense conflict resolution as well.
[02:59]
And at that point, I was really struck by what was possible when you kind of take young people out of their day-to-day reality. And create, uh, some new opportunities to see themselves or others in different light, and that, uh, that got me hooked on, yeah, kind of the power of out-of-school time spaces and how they can be used to support in-school time spaces as well. And so, yeah, from there, got to spend, uh, a number of years in New York City working in the after-school space there. That was a time when, uh, New York City's Department of Education was restructuring a lot of the schools, so really providing that extra layer of support as young people were, you know, either in schools being shut down or reopened. And then the opportunity, yeah, to...
[03:39]
I got to know Campfire, spent a little time with the Family Foundation, and they were in my portfolio of grantees and was very intrigued by, uh, yeah, with this national organization with, you know, 100-plus years of history, uh, how it was connecting with young people today. And so, yeah, a little while after that, had the opportunity to join the team about 12 years ago, and I often joke it's probably been 12 roles in that, in 12 years, but initially came on leading program quality and evaluation work that evolved into leading some of our strategy work, and then have been in the CEO role for about a year and a half now.
[04:14] SPEAKER_01:
Okay.
[04:39]
In the summer. Talk to us a little bit about that American tradition of camping and kind of, you know, perhaps some of the rationale has changed, but some of the through lines have remained. How do you, how do you look at that history and connect it to what's happening today?
[04:53] SPEAKER_00:
Great question. No, I love being able to kind of use the history as the foundation and think about what that looks like today, you know. And so, you know, in the context of, of Campfire, right, we were founded as Campfire Girls in 1910, and Right.
[05:28]
You know, at the time, we probably didn't use the term well-being, but now understand it as that, right? Getting outside not only supports your physical health, but your mental health, you know, your overall health. And also, you know, again, recognizing it as really this space to create opportunities for young people to, again, work with others in a different way that maybe... to develop new skills that they maybe hadn't had a chance to.
[05:51]
So, again, I think in a lot of ways it gives young people, uh, both a sense of freedom and a chance to explore and grow and fail in all kinds of, of ways that maybe they don't have the opportunity to in, in kind of whatever their day-to-day routines are. And so, you know, again, that has evolved over time. You know, as you mentioned, right, we, we went, uh, co-ed in the 1970s and... You know, Campfire today is, you know, really intentional about creating inclusive program spaces.
[06:22]
Again, all really with the focus of how do we support young people to get outside and recognizing for many communities, right, that's not... That has not always been something that has felt either safe or accessible, right, or comfortable. And so, you know, we really, again, really try to work intentionally with both young people, their families, their school communities as well. Uh, to create opportunities to build that comfort level, uh, to begin to explore the outdoors, right?
[06:47]
And, and then try some new interests and, uh, hopefully find a little sense of purpose in it as well.
[06:53] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. Yeah.
[07:14]
And it seems like they're probably spending a lot less time out in the physical world where, you know, you can actually skin your knee, you can actually, uh, you know, get sparks burning holes in your clothing if you're around a physical campfire, which is one of my favorite things to do. You know, my, the fire pit has always been my prized possession, whether I had a tiny yard in Seattle. Um...
[07:54]
Talk to us about the role that that plays in childhood, in development, in, you know, what's going on in kids' heads, because I feel like we've retreated from that in so many ways. You know, we have all these adult-mediated activities where there's gear, there are helmets, there are pads, and, like, typically you don't wear protective gear for camping and campfires and things like that, and I just wonder your thoughts on that issue.
[08:16] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, great question. So, I mean, this is an area where, you know, I not only think about this in my professional role, but also my personal role as a parent, right? So, I have a 9- and 11-year-old myself, and so, you know, I think... For all of us, whether we're young people, we're adults, right, there's... And, you know, the role technology plays in part of this is, you know, I think we spend a lot of time, you know, and some of that is by design in terms of how, you know, phones and social media is designed to work, is that we're in defend mode, right?
[08:50]
And so we're feeling more anxious, we're feeling insecure... We're feeling overwhelmed, right? I know even just, you know, reading the news is enough to cause me to feel overwhelmed, right? And so, that is a very different kind of, uh, place for your brain to be than in more discover mode, right?
[09:08]
And in discover mode, Again, you not only, I think, are feeling more hopeful, you're feeling more curious, but again, it's giving you kind of more space to, like, how do I want to check things out, right? What do I want to try and explore? And, you know, I think as a parent, you know, one of the things that I often try to remind myself of is there's very few things that are free from risk, right? Risk is not an inherently bad thing. You know, there are...
[09:34]
There's dangerous risk. You know, there is bad forms of it and good forms of risk. And, you know, but not all risk is kind of created equal. And so really thinking about, like, what are healthy or developmentally appropriate forms of risk for young people to be taking on? And how can we create those opportunities for them? And how can we kind of create, use that as ways for them to feel in control, right?
[10:01]
And so, you know, one of the things that I like to do when I visit our programs is I try to pick something that feels scary for me, right? And that typically involves some form of risk, you know? And so, I'll give you two examples, right? At one, the snake lady was there, and, you know, if I had to pick an animal that's probably bottom of my list of favorites, it's snakes, you know? But...
[10:22]
Me and the little baby snake, you know, we hung out together for a little while, and I think we both were equally terrified. But, you know, in another case, it was climbing the rock climbing wall, right, at one of our overnight camp properties, and with a group of sixth graders, right? And they were... You know, they kind of took the role of, hey, okay, here, I'm going to teach you how to use your harness.
[10:43]
I'm going to, you know, kind of help support you, guide you, you know. And also, I knew I was in control, right? I knew when I got to the height on that wall, which was not the top, that I was getting too far outside my comfort zone, right? And I was like, okay, I'm good, ready to come down. And so, again, I think about...
[11:00]
How do we create opportunities for that risk that is developmental, you know, that grows confidence, that grows curiosity? And how is that different than the types of risks that, you know, again, because of the amount of time we're often spending on screens, Right.
[11:36]
Because they want you to purchase it, right? And so, you know, again, that's another form of risk, but often one we don't think about. And so, yeah, I think thinking about risk really intentionally and how do we kind of incorporate risk in young people's lives with purpose, um, in a way that, again, is not detrimental to their safety, but is really intended to help them grow developmentally.
[11:59] SPEAKER_01:
It seems like a big aspect of that requires us as adults to step back a little bit and allow kids to do things, you know, to actually make decisions, to take risks, you know, not totally on their own, not totally, you know, in a situation of danger. But, you know, all school day, kids are under the direction of adults. In sports, there's an actual referee, there are coaches, you know, there are adults everywhere directing things. And I've seen a lot of concern that perhaps we're overdoing that, that that exploration, that that self-directedness that kids have, you know, maybe for at least part of the day in a camp setting or in an after-school setting is something that they really need. And even thinking about preschool, I've seen some research that suggests that if we over-structure preschool, then it stops having some of the beneficial effects that it has when kids can...
[12:53]
Right. Right.
[13:13] SPEAKER_00:
Absolutely. So we often talk about it within our programs as, as voice and choice, right? How are we creating opportunities for young people to have a voice, to have a say in what it is they're getting to spend their time on, right? What it is, uh, how they want to go about being able to do that. And also then to be able to...
[13:31]
So they're not only kind of seeing themselves as shapers of their experience and co-designers, and then they're also able to make choices, right? That they are in the kind of the driver's seat or in control of how they navigate through those. And so, you know, sometimes it's... You know, what feel like smaller choices.
[13:48]
So, saying, hey, I want to be kind of part of the action, and, you know, if you're at overnight camp, you know, eating lunch in the loud dining hall where everyone is singing and cheering, and... Or maybe it's saying, hey, I actually need a minute to reset, and some quiet time would be really helpful...
[14:04]
For me, in this moment, and so, actually, I'm choosing to eat outside today, right? So, kind of having those options available for young people to make choice, or, you know, using the rock climbing example from before... of when to say stop, right? We have, you know, countless examples of young people who say, okay, today, like, I'm going to put the harness on, but I'm not ready to climb the wall.
[14:27]
And that's okay, right? And being supportive and nonjudgmental in that, I think, is a big part of this piece. You know, I was recently listening to a podcast that was talking about You know, young people and their perceptions of AI and AI use. And one of the things that really caught my attention was it said that young people often are not talking to the adults in their lives about AI and their relationship with it because they feel they will be judged. And so I think that's a really important thing as we're thinking about...
[14:59]
kind of space for young people to have that voice and have that choice of just kind of taking that moment to self-reflect as, as the adult in the room, right? Whether it's as a parent or a coach or a teacher. Right, right.
[15:36]
We're gonna tell you what to do. I think another important piece that we think a lot about as, you know, in some ways, a contrast to the school day, but I think it doesn't have to be a contrast, and is how we use the in-between times, right? And that's something that I think You know, if I look to lessons kind of from the camp or after-school space, they're really good at using in-between times, right? So the transition times between activities, those kind of few minutes of downtime, right? Often in a school building, right? It's like, hey, line up and be quiet, right?
[16:07]
And that serves a purpose. And, you know, if you look at a camp setting, those are often moments that are really intentionally used to build connection, right? between young people, and again, I think gives them other opportunities to really see themselves as drivers of their own experience in that setting. And so, again, those are some of the moments that I like to look for for ways to be supporting young people.
[16:32] SPEAKER_01:
The best part?
[16:57]
Everything I just mentioned is all integrated into one platform, so you can simplify your edtech tools. Visit iXL.com slash center to lead your school toward data-driven excellence today. I think one of our concerns within schools, but also as parents, is that those in-between times are being consumed with technology, right? Anytime there's not, you know, something I'm supposed to be doing instead, and sometimes even when there is something I'm supposed to be doing instead, it's on the phone, immediately back on the phone, scrolling. And I think we all face that pressure.
[17:29]
I mean, it applies to everybody who has a phone or has any kind of device. And we're seeing when schools ban phones during the school day, even at lunch, even in the hallways, you know, even in those in-between times outside of class, the benefits seem to be huge, that kids are forced to actually make eye contact and talk to each other and interact. Talk to us about what you're seeing in the after-school and summer world when, you know, typically kids aren't banned completely from their phones at those times, but maybe at a camp, they are. How do you guys think about and approach those issues?
[18:01] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, no, and many of our camps, right, young people don't have access to their phones and technology.
[18:06] SPEAKER_01:
They don't work. They're in the woods, right?
[18:08] SPEAKER_00:
Exactly, right. Or if they have it, there's no reception, right? And that's the other, maybe more frustrating side of it. So, I think there's a few things that we're mindful of, is that that transition period where, again, you're kind of forming new habits or breaking old habits is hard. Right? And, you know, it's hard for any one of us, right?
[18:31]
And especially, you know, as your brain is still developing, like, knowing, you know, what is it that I'm feeling? You know, I'm so used to scrolling in moments of discomfort or boredom, right? And instead, like, how do I navigate through that? is something that we're having to be really intentional about in kind of, in terms of, like, that transition in, into program, right? And, and so, you know, again, it's sometimes it's making sure that young people know what options are available. Hey, if you feel bored, um, you know, here's two or three things that you can do.
[19:04]
If you are, you know, right, you mentioned, right, having to make eye contact, right? Oftentimes, again, if you're used to being on your phone, It's not often gonna disagree with you, right? But when it's, uh, human-to-human engagement, it's quite likely that somebody's gonna disagree with you, you know? And so, again, like, teaching young people and supporting them, like, how to be comfortable in that discomfort, I think, is another, another important thing. One of the things that we learned as we often, you know, just as we would do a health intake, right, to make sure that we know, you know, everything from what medications a young person needs to, you know, any allergies, etc., that we need to be aware of, is also checking in with young people from, like, a mental, emotional, and social health standpoint.
[19:46]
What do you need to feel safe and supported in this environment? And one of the things that we ask is, you know, is there a trusted adult that you could turn to? Or, you know, what helps you when you feel upset or anxious or worried? You know, what are the things you worry about? One of the things we discovered, you know, especially kind of, you know, coming out of a lot of the COVID shutdown was...
[20:09]
Uh, young people concerned about if food was prepared in a sanitary way. And so, again, that gives an opportunity to, to explore that with them, right, and alleviate some of that worry. So, and I think, you know, also, to be real, and I know I'm probably going to be this parent as well, that sometimes it's harder on the parents than the young people to not have access via technology to them. Right? And so, especially, you know, where your young person is, you know, away for multiple days and nights, you know, maybe for the first time, and you aren't able to easily reach them, right? You're reliant on a third party on the camp to be providing pictures and updates and information from your young person.
[20:48]
So, again, I think, you know, having kind of the contingency plans that, hey, here's what I'm going to turn to... Knowing that in advance so that, you know, in those moments of stress or discomfort, you're not scrambling for that. And again, finding those new coping mechanisms. One of the things that we love to do with young people is just talk about how do you kind of get outside and reset your system, right?
[21:11]
And so just even... going outside and looking up at the sky or we'll use, like, uh, what we call, like, a 5-4-3-2-1, right? Like, what are five things you hear and four things you smell and three things you see? But, again, just kind of getting in sense with your... or getting in touch with your senses as a way to kind of recalibrate your nervous system in those moments where, again, it's hard and, like, it's...
[21:34]
it's by design that we are meant to feel that way. And so again, kind of how do we, how do we get back in control of, of what we're feeling and, and the opportunities that we're taking advantage of? And ultimately, I think being able to kind of be present in, in both the time and the space that we're in.
[21:51] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm.
[22:24]
Yeah.
[22:40]
Okay. Okay.
[23:03] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, so when you're in a campfire program, you are having fun. So that is, I think, the most important piece is that you're, that you're engaged in fun, right? And that you're also building friendships along the way. And so, you know, all of the activities, so at a national level, right, we look for a core set of experiences that are present across all of our programs. And that's things like...
[23:25]
Yeah.
[23:42]
For each letter, you know, they would get to pick, what is it that we want to bake today? And, you know, going through the process of, like, what ingredients do we need, and how do we put them together? And, you know, at the same time, there was a young person who was like, yeah, that's not really my thing. Like, I'm not interested in that. And, you know, she was able to actually, like, she ran over, this was a first grader, like, grabbed a form, you know, the scribble was writing really fast, and it was like...
[24:06]
Hey, here's an activity I'd love to have, you know? And then she could say if she wanted to lead that activity or if she wanted to participate, right? And both were equally wonderful options and supported options for her, right? And so, again, I think as you named, right, it's chances to move your body, right? To engage in, you know, whether it's young people playing sports, you know, or it's young people, you know, depending on the setting, right, having the chance to go on a walk or a hike or, you know, Maybe experiencing water activities for the first time, right? That... Or to try that, you know, ropes course, that challenge course, uh, that, again, there's multiple opportunities both to be exploring your own interests, right, your own curiosities, growing your skills, and then also, uh, a chance to kind of be doing those things in relationship to others.
[24:56]
And we often talk about, like, how are we... ...building peer-to-peer relationships.
[25:01]
How are we building, like, peer-to-near-peer relationships so that cohorts slightly older than you that, you know, oftentimes are the best role models and examples and the folks that, you know, are really kind of being looked to as leaders. And then, you know, also, you know, youth-to-adult relationships and, you know, making sure that young people really have that web of developmental support... Right, exactly.
[25:46]
So what? You know, why does that activity matter? What is that helping? How is that helping you grow or discover something about yourself or others? And then, you know, now what? How are you going to take that and apply that to other aspects of your life?
[26:00] SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the role of older young people, whether that's in an after-school program, maybe they're the, you know, the staff who primarily work with students, or maybe at a camp? I think almost every camp I've ever been involved in had kind of a junior counselor role where, you know, the younger counselors were there both for themselves and for the campers, and then there were, you know, older adult counselors as well. What do you see as the role of young people in those kind of in-between roles?
[26:28] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. So, this is a cohort in terms of, uh, that I could spend a lot of time on. And, and I think, and it's exciting. And I think it's exciting for a few reasons. One, right, like, if we look at windows of brain development, right, we know, like, those, those kind of early, like, toddler preschool years are huge. And then this, like, late adolescent period is also huge, right?
[26:51]
And so, for many of those, right, in those kind of counselor-in-training, leader-in-training, day camp aid roles... Often even moving into, you know, after school, staff members or, you know, summer camp counselors are in that stage themselves, right? And so there's, I think, both huge opportunities for growth in, you know, in their own development and in serving as those models for young people. And so, again, we often think about you know, what are ways that they can be, be modeling?
[27:23]
And they're both shadowing, so they do both shadowing and modeling, right? So I'm talking about, like, how do they shadow those that, you know, are, are in this, you know, for a, for a career, right? You know, whether it's a teacher or a camp director, a counselor, et cetera. And then also, how are they modeling for the younger folks as well? And so, again, and we find so much of it is, is giving them spaces to try on Right. Right.
[28:06]
And maybe that's not something they've had the, you know, the opportunity to spend much time in, but, you know, again, kind of, it's really the opportunity to kind of grapple with various levels of discomfort and risk and curiosity in a safe and supportive setting. And so, you know, and in some ways, I think the camp industry has had these types of programs for so long, and I think it serves as a really kind of another example and bright spot of, you know, opportunities to apply that, You know, across the board, right, as we look at, you know, teacher training programs or, you know, assistant teachers or paraprofessionals as well, and of the amazing role that they play in supporting young people. And oftentimes, right, those are the folks who are most present in those in-between times. And so, really supporting them with the tools and the knowledge and the understanding of...
[28:58]
of how can you be, yeah, kind of building that web of support around young people in those spaces as a real asset to their learning journey.
[29:06] SPEAKER_01:
Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about, uh, just how people can learn more about the different options that are in their area. And as I mentioned, when I was a principal, we had a campfire after-school program on-site. That was the after-school program that, uh, parents took advantage of. Uh, probably always had a waiting list. Uh, talk to us about how people can learn more about those options as well as, kind of, for, you know, summer and, uh, you know, those times of year.
[29:31] SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, so if you'd like to learn more about Campfire, um, a great place to start is our website, campfire.org. Uh, on there, you can find a list of all our programs and locations across the country. Another, uh, thing I would suggest, too, is, you know, reach out to your school. Uh, oftentimes, right, schools are able to, to build relationships with local campfires or, you know, again, have a presence in their school. It's...
[29:57]
You know, as a parent, right, I know it's so much easier to have an after-school program in the same building, and so, uh, yeah, reach out to your school teams as well, and then ask for Campfire, right? And, um, we really pride ourselves on partnerships, and so... And we also pride ourselves on, you know, removing barriers to participation and access, so...
[30:17]
You know, many of our programs have camperships, scholarships available if cost is a barrier. Uh, have family weekends as well. That's a great opportunity to just build kind of comfort and familiarity with some of our programs and a chance for everybody to get outside for a little while as well. So, yeah, I'd say check out campfire.org. Uh, you can always feel free to reach out via our contact form as well.
[30:40]
And, yeah, if you don't have young people but are interested in, uh, supporting our work, there's ways to do that as well, uh, via our website.
[30:47] SPEAKER_01:
Donna Rosenzweig, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure.
[30:50] SPEAKER_00:
Thank you for having me.
[30:56] Announcer:
Thanks for listening to Principal Center Radio. For more great episodes, subscribe on our website at principalcenter.com slash radio.
