Tom Hierck & Chris Weber—MTSS Roadmap

[00:01] Announcer:

Welcome to Principal Center Radio, helping you build capacity for instructional leadership. Here's your host, Director of the Principal Center, Dr. Justin Baeder. Welcome, everyone, to Principal Center Radio.

[00:13] Justin Baeder:

I'm your host, Justin Baeder, and I'm honored to welcome to the program Tom Hirk and Chris Weber, authors of the MTSS Roadmap.

[00:23] Announcer:

And now, our feature presentation.

[00:26] Justin Baeder:

Tom and Chris, welcome to Principal Center Radio. Thanks. It's great to be back with you.

[00:30] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

Thanks, Justin.

[00:31] Justin Baeder:

Well, I'm very excited to jump right in to talking about your new book, the MTSS Roadmap. Tell us a little bit, if you would, the background of this book. Where did this come from? How did you start working together? And what prompted you to write this particular book?

[00:45] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

I think... I probably speak for Tom in two respects. Leading schools, schools that are 100% committed, authentically committed, forever committed to every single student learning at high levels presents schools with a challenge. Do you really believe that?

[01:00]

Do you feel it? Are you committed to it so fiercely that you'll do whatever it takes? Or is it nothing more I fear than words on a mission statement? And so two pieces, Justin, one is when I was a principal last, uh, we were building what we later determined were systems of supports for all students learning at high levels. Uh, I didn't never heard of RTI or MTSS at the time until somebody came and visited and said, Hey, this is what you're doing. Oh, is it really?

[01:29]

We just thought it was common sense. Um, perhaps not so common, but nonetheless common sense. And secondly, both Tom and I. probably had relatively more quick levels of success ameliorating students' academic needs. But by golly, there were still students at risk. And it's because we're not as familiar with, trained on addressing students' non-academic, non-cognitive factors, these behavioral skills, everything from mindsets to self-regulation, executive functioning.

[02:01]

And yet, if really we're committed forever and no matter what it takes to serving all students' needs, we need to figure out and learn and put into practice those behavioral supports. So this book, like some of the other books that we've written, is talking to school teams and district teams, but school teams guided, led by the principal to say, hey, it can be common sense. It's not that it's not complex, but it need not be complicated. So what would that roadmap be? How could we help? Not the jargon or the the forms and the documents, but real common sense.

[02:36]

What are some common sense ways of getting started? What are some common sense ways of being successful? And while you're doing that, let's make sure we're addressing academic and behavioral needs that students have.

[02:47] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

Yeah, we likened it to the whole notion of a roadmap, right? We imagined, again, this journey that schools were on. And, you know, as always with any journey, you have different starting points. You have different interests along the way. You have different things that grab your attention. And so what we've tried to accomplish in this book is to anticipate a variety of different ways people might want to go and how they might want to exist on this journey.

[03:11]

We're mindful that Chris and I did not invent MTSS. We're not the first ones to talk about it. People have great familiarity. They have some ideas of, but we wanted to provide a number of different entry points. And the recognition that we would be doing these things as we would an academic environment. You know, I think schools by and large are really good at addressing and have really moved the needle a lot when we think about the academic progressions.

[03:41]

But the behaviors, as Chris alluded to, sometimes tends to lag. We tend to put on a different lens when it comes to behavior. We tend to personalize it. We tend to think it's something that, you know, and ultimately for us, it's a very simple premise. If you haven't taught it, why are you expecting to see it? And that covers behavior as it does academics.

[04:03] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

It does. And PBIS and CASEL and these incredible organizations endure sets of principles and practices. They're fantastic. They're outstanding. We honor them. We use them.

[04:14]

And it's tough being a school principal and ensuring to the extent possible, hopefully, inevitably, all students will be at those high levels of access and achievement in all areas. And it's tough work. So to have separate systems for academics and behavior, it's exhausting and probably super inefficient, if not ineffective. So increasingly across the work Tom and I have done in schools and school districts and in our writing, it's mapping the same procedures and principles and practices onto behavior that we have onto academics. Tom mentioned the fundamental tier one, so why would you not apply the same curriculum, instruction, assessment, grading, differentiation, feedback to behavior as you would to academics, but the same applies just into tier two.

[05:05]

We increasingly know what to do in tier two in academics, providing more time, alternative ways for students to demonstrate more mastery of those essentials of tier one. The same thing applies behaviorally, and in fact, there are research-based practices and processes for Tier 2 behavior, and we can apply the same analogous thinking to Tier 3. We hope it creates a simpler roadmap, really, to guiding a school through this process with lots of examples and lots of, here's what has been happening, here's what we're doing now, so that we hope it's a practical guide.

[05:44] Justin Baeder:

So I'm hearing in there, as you've worked with schools to develop multi-tiered systems of support, if anybody's lost in the acronyms here, MTSS is multi-tiered systems of support. And you're saying that for both academics and behavior, we can take the same approach, use some of the same processes, and have some of the same principles at work. The idea that These things are teachable, right? What we want students to learn is, of course, teachable, but behavior is also teachable. But it's not just a, you know, we'll kind of try some things, and if not, you know, kids are out of here. We're actually increasing the supports, increasing what we're doing for kids who don't respond well to that Tier 1 instruction.

[06:25]

Let's talk about behavior a little bit, if we could, because I feel like the academic side is a little bit more familiar. Tom, I know you've written quite a few books on RTI and MTSS. And on the behavior side, I feel like often we don't really teach behavior at all in a lot of schools. We just expect it, right? And if students don't demonstrate the behavior we want, we get rid of them in some way, maybe for an hour with detention, maybe for a day with suspension, maybe permanently with expulsion or alternative placement. There has not been as clear a profession-wide practice of actually teaching and teaching in schools increasingly more intensive ways, the kinds of behaviors, the kinds of self-regulation skills that we want our students to have.

[07:12]

What does it look like when schools start to make that shift from saying, this is just what we expect, if you can't do it, you're out of here, to a truly multi-tiered system where behavior is actually taught with increasing levels of intensity? Take us into that a bit.

[07:27] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

Yeah, I think you're right on there, Justin. And probably even more so during the pandemic, this has been exposed. When kids have been remote and then trying to reintegrate back to school, one of the biggest challenges, right, is that there are school positive behaviors, you know, that we might need in order for kids to exhibit levels of success. You know, I liken it, you know, the model that I work with schools. I talk about when kids come to school, they come to our house. And in our house, we have to be responsible for establishing, you know, the desirable behaviors.

[08:01]

And in order to have those, we have to teach them. You know, and it is so interesting to Chris and I, I think we've done four or five books. Maybe this is book number six that Chris and I have had a chance to write together. You know, we always have this feature on about how are we going to properly, appropriately deliver the content? Because teachers will tell me they have overwhelming evidence that kids don't know how to behave. And yet they'll do just what you described.

[08:27]

They'll rush to consequence, exclusion. When I first started teaching, I was given the severe behavior kids. right? Now think about that concept that we took all the most ill-behaved children, we put them in a room together, and we wondered why their behavior didn't improve. They didn't stand a chance, right? You were battling that.

[08:47]

They arrived with a chip on their shoulders. So now we need to dial it back. What are the things? So if you tell me you're built on a foundation of respect, have you taught what that looks like? Have you indicated to your students? One of the ways we demonstrate respect is that when Justin is talking, the rest of us are listening.

[09:06]

And if what Justin says causes you to have an idea, the respectful thing to do is to raise your hand. And have we gone through what raising your hand looks like? It's not a pumping of the arm and grunting sound. It's not the edge of your seat big wave, right? It's this. And that even to the degree where there's a violation, we connect it back to the instruction.

[09:29]

And the pushback I often get is, well, Tom, that takes so much time. Yes, it does. Good teaching takes time. Poor teaching takes even more time. We don't think about it because it's the time spent in what I call chase time, trying to ameliorate after the fact and only doing it through the measure of consequence. You know, Chris and I are not opposed to consequence.

[09:52]

We're opposed to consequence in isolation. Consequence has to be paired with instruction if we are hoping for a breakthrough.

[10:00] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

And consequence needs to lead to a reduction in the misbehavior. It's a common sense. It's not so common, but often our exclusionary practices, as you said, Justin, removing from the class is exactly what the student is seeking. That's what they're trying to achieve. So ensuring that whatever consequences that are paired with reteaching, reflection, restitution is in fact a guide towards progress and a reduction in misbehavior. I would add to what Tom was saying.

[10:32]

I was recently working with schools where one of their breakthroughs was, oh, we're going to dedicate some of our existing professional learning community time where our math teams or our grade four teams are working together. We're going to dedicate some of that time, some of those questions that guide our PLC work to behavior. And wow, if we did that, then that provides that status. It elevates that status of behavior. And the status of behavior, Tom mentioned the pandemic, but even pre-pandemic, there is an increasing body of research that says that non-cognitive factors, like things like social skills and mindsets and learning strategies and perseverance and academic behaviors like self-regulation and executive functioning, they matter for academic success even more than academic content knowledge and let's say cognitive skills. And I think teachers and schools are increasingly believing that.

[11:26]

We've gone, I think, Justin, from, well, I guess I'll provide a focus on behavior if it means I can get to the teaching of academics to, you know, these skills, like study skills, they're kind of important no matter what class the kiddo's in or what grade level they're in. So real, real, real practically, you would start academic work with what are the standards? What are our prioritized outcomes that we want all students to achieve? So let's do that behaviorally. Whether you look at CASEL's five competencies or The five domains that I think Tom and I favor that are within the non-cognitive work of Camille Farrington and Carol Dweck and others. But you identify, look, these are the domains of reading.

[12:04]

These are the domains of behaviors. And then you prioritize them. What are most important for our students? What represents the greatest area of need for our students? Let's scope those. Let's sequence those just as we would with academics.

[12:17]

And then, as I think you were relating to, we all were, is then we teach them. So what does that look like? Well, it probably means a combination of explicit mini lessons in a classroom meeting and an advisory period and, and, and the intentional embedding of those skills. And Tom did a great job of talking about respect throughout the day with all staff members committed to doing that. So that's not a mini lesson that takes place on Monday morning or Wednesday afternoon, but it's something that we live and breathe and practice and receive feedback on and apply to the work we do within schools. And I'll stop there, Justin, but you can imagine, well, we need to gather evidence on the extent to which students are having success assessment.

[12:59]

We need to give them feedback. We need inevitably to differentiate because just as we can expect, some students come to a grade level, not reading where they need to in all ways to access the content. We can expect the same things with the, in the area of behavioral skills. And then we look at tiered supports because some students are going to need more time or more intensive supports, but the analogies, not just in, in MTSS practices, but in actual delivery of those supplemental interventions is the way in which you would do it for academics. I think that's where probably Tom and I have had the greatest success in the last couple of years with a lot of head nods and, okay, we got this is from the folks we work with is, okay, I'm going to analogize it to academics. And we're always going to come back to that when we get a little stuck.

[13:46]

Okay, well, what would we do in the area of academics? All right. Well, what would that look like for behavior?

[13:52] Justin Baeder:

Well, and I love the starting with expectations. Basically, what are our standards? If we're planning our lessons based on standards, but we're thinking about behavior only in kind of hidden implicit terms that we only bring up when a student violates them, then it's very difficult to build instruction around those kind of implicit expectations.

[14:14] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

Yeah, and you just use the word expectations, right? And I think that's part of it as well, is what are our expectations? versus rules.

[14:25]

Rules clearly come up after a violation. We don't ever want to see that again. And yet we live in a day and age where I think you might be able to make a new rule every day. Expectations are lifelong. The expectation of respect carries through every adult environment kids will encounter. And so we've got to get away from this notion of they ought to know.

[14:51]

I think if I was teaching grade five math, I could say, gosh, kids ought to know how to multiply two digit numbers, right? But if they didn't, what would I do? I wouldn't rush to consequence them. I would probably begin some instructional design practice. I'd find ways to get them engaged to make sure they got there to close that gap. When the repeated evidence is they don't know, I'm not sure.

[15:21]

what outside of teaching would be an effective strategy to close that gap?

[15:26] Justin Baeder:

You've touched on this just a little bit, but two of the big questions that come to mind for me when it comes to teaching behavior are who and when. And you mentioned kind of mini lessons and not just once on Monday morning, but obviously if our students do need a substantial amount of instruction on how to show respect, how to behave in a school environment, how to kind of get back into normal face-to-face learning and work productively together. When do we do that? And especially thinking in terms of either a secondary school where everybody has short periods and a lot of content to cover, or thinking in terms of in other schools where maybe teachers do have more time with their students at the elementary level, they're with them all day, but some students need a lot more. Who and when?

[16:16] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

You're right, Justin, it's going to look different, not just elementary to secondary, but from a secondary school to a secondary school. And I would start again by, to what extent is this the will of the community, the community outside the school, the community within the school? If, in fact, this is an area of need, then we kind of have two choices. We can continue to complain and hope it gets better on its own through what we've been doing, for which we have evidence of lack of success, I think. Or we can make the commitment to doing a little bit differently. So I would say the when question, Justin, is, as is the case with the theme, perhaps, of behaviors inextricably aligned to academics, to looking at our academic priorities.

[17:01]

In my school district, the school district in which I'm working, we're continuously looking at the quantity of content that we want all students to get to mastery on. And even for our students who are compliant because they can mimic what we do, what we're committed to is saying, look, we think the quantity of academic content is compromising the quality of learning we want, even academically. So that's an open door for us, this idea that there is a guaranteed and viable curriculum and that that is going to be a fluid quantity because we're not going to let quantity compromise quality. Okay, so what does that have to do with behavior? Well, if behavior, the status of these behavioral skills is elevated now, right alongside academics, then as we're prioritizing academic content, in ninth grade biology or seventh grade English or within all the things we do in elementary school, then we're going to need to probably deprioritize some academic content to give space for this behavioral content.

[17:57]

Okay. That still doesn't answer the question of when within the day. So when within the day is just a dedicated, preserved, sacred time, whether that's a morning meeting or a classroom meeting or restorative justice circle or an advisory period. It can be something that's built within my day, like my secondary bell schedule, advisory, for example, at homeroom, or something in some of our schools where they say, we don't have that within our bell schedule, but here's what we're going to do. On Mondays, we're always going to do it. And on some Mondays, we're going to take that from period one, but we're not going to always take that time for that mini lesson that the whole school agrees to do.

[18:35]

And the topic is empathy because that's a behavioral standard expectation that we're going to learn all together, teach, learn, practice, receive feedback on. Whereas in subsequent weeks, it may be academic self-regulation, so studying, et cetera. But we all are going to do it. We're all reinforcing it. But you make that commitment. But not just that commitment to when it happens as a mini lesson that the whole school kind of engages in, but that commitment to several times.

[19:03]

And we're going to hold ourselves accountable. Several times between when it's first introduced till the next behavioral skill and standards are introduced we are intentionally embedding into what we're doing. So class, we're about to go into our rotations, or class, we're going to get into our small groups to complete this lab. But before we do, I want us just to take a moment and think on what is empathy going to look like as we do this work together? Please share that with a partner. And I'm going to randomly call on a couple of you all to kind of see where you are.

[19:35]

Oh, I like that. And here's perhaps another thing, another way that you'll see that's related. So that it's intentionally embedded as we go. And the who probably follows is we're probably not going to have behavioral specialists or external individuals to our classroom, to my classroom that are going to do this work. We're all going to do this work. And I would say that if we aren't all committed to doing it consistently and even passionately, I'm not sure I would recommend you implement this or initiate this because a lack of consistency and follow through is going to erode your success immensely.

[20:13] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

You know, part of the answer to who Justin is really who intersects the life of that child. Right. So, you know, look, 90 percent of our kids were bussed in. So we had to get our bus drivers on board with us, too. Right. We had to get, you know, the custodial staff, everybody who might intersect the life of that that child.

[20:37]

You know, the content starts to be delivered and. We have flexibility. You know, Chris and I happen to believe that this is as foundational for a kid to master as is reading, writing, and basic number sense. If we don't inculcate in our students the skills necessary requisite to self-regulate, to be able to exist in a pluralistic society, then we've missed. So this is as foundational as those academic pieces. And hence the notion that not only are we explicitly teaching it, but we are referencing it so that it doesn't appear to be a one-off.

[21:25]

I'll never forget one time I was going to work with a school and I did just what Chris was talking about. And I mentioned empathy and somebody in the audience put their hand up and said, yeah, we did that last year. What are we going to learn this year? As if, you know, it's a one-off thing and therefore we are good, right? We've got to get back to empathy. And we know that crises will ebb and flow throughout schools.

[21:50]

And so are we arming kids? Are we building their capacity as we would in those academic domains?

[21:56] Justin Baeder:

I wonder if we could talk just a little bit about tier two and three, because I think especially at the secondary level, there has long, and at the elementary level as well, to be fair, I think there has long been this feeling that for kids who have a higher level of need, it's entirely someone else's problem. There is someone else who surely can take on this problem. And I think you've done a great job of drawing attention to the importance of tier one and how that has to be something that we're all committed to. But at the same time, there are specialized supports that maybe just...

[22:30]

a need that exceeds the need of everybody else in the class, a student that requires more time or support. What can that look like with more specialized staff? Who do those staff tend to be who are providing those tier two and tier three supports? And what can that look like?

[22:50] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

Yeah, this is where another analogy back to academics will prove fruitful. And one of the challenges, Justin, with behavior is You know, behavior is behavior, whether it's period one or period two, whether it's in the morning in the literacy block or whether it's, you know, mid-morning in the math block. So it will, you know, depending on how many adults the kiddos see in a day, it's going to necessitate more of a collective response to needs than perhaps academics would, interestingly. Nonetheless, I think whether you're Mike Matos and Austin Buffam or Tom Herrick and Chris Weber, you know, we define tier two, academics and behavior, as more time And alternative ways for students to learn the priorities of tier one. So tier two isn't tier three light. It's more time to master the priorities of the core.

[23:42]

Consequently, who's best positioned to do that work? It's going to be our PLC teams. So with tier two behavior, the same is the case. We have evidence that students aren't yet where we need them to be in empathy. So we have some evidence that informs that. We collaborate with our tier two team and we give them more time and an alternative strategy, let's say, to prompt them and to remind them.

[24:08]

Interestingly, I think in both tier two and tier three behaviors, there are probably more well-defined and well-researched principles and practices. At tier two, it's called check-in, check-out. And that's not a contract. There's much more to it than just, here's how I think you did this period, Justin. There's more that informs it and there's more along the processes, but it's a research-based set of practices that we've both used and that I just recently was helping additional schools design. And it gives kids more time.

[24:38]

Why? Because they're checking in and checking out with a trusted adult. Because they're receiving a little bit more guidance and reminders by the teachers, the adults throughout the day with whom the student works. They're getting a little bit more feedback. And with this tier two process, there's an alternative strategy that is determined by a team And to your point earlier, Justin, or to your question, I think, who else is involved in supporting the PLC teams and implementing this? Sure, administration, critically involved.

[25:04]

Would we benefit from counselors or school psychologists? Not, I would say, Justin, to deliver that intervention, this tier two support, but to inform it, to guide us in it, of course. I would say the same is true academically, though, if I have a primary age kiddo who doesn't really seem to be able to process his or her phonemes appropriately, I'm going to reach out to the speech and language pathologist. Who's pretty, pretty informed in that area to, to, to help us determine what we're going to do. But at tier two teacher teams, that's, that's, who's taking the lead on that just as they would academically. But in tier three, sure.

[25:37]

Just as in the area of, of academics, where we probably have an interventionist who is meeting the needs of that kiddo, not because a classroom teacher couldn't, but when would they do that while they're meeting the differentiated tier one and tier two needs of their kiddos? So sure we do. We often use interventionist in addition to the core team, the PLC team and providing tier three supports. And again, in the area of tier three behavior, we have these things called FBAs and BSPs. I won't stop with the acronym suggestions, but it's functional behavioral analyses and behavior support plans. Those are tried and true.

[26:12]

They work. Do they take time to develop? They do. Are they effective when implemented well? They are. So just as we have intensive multisyllabic phonics interventions for, let's say, grade six and seven kiddos who are at risk in the area of reading.

[26:27]

We have these behavioral tier three supports that are certainly defined and determined and ultimately developed by a team, a broader MTSS team, just as we would for academics. But man, the implementation of that, the kiddos need to behave not in a small group. They need to behave all day long. And so it really ultimately will involve every single staff member, even if we're increasingly getting the technical expertise of some of the colleagues with whom we work.

[26:59] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

And, you know, as always, it's driven by the evidence, right? You know, as we would do on the academic front, what evidence is compelling you to believe that there is needed some additional tier two support? So if we have a structured block of time, you know, that win time, whatever I need time, Um, what if the behavior is the single biggest deterrent to a child performing? Now, Chris alluded to this earlier. We, we certainly emphasize this in all of our writings, you know, behavior and academics are inextricably linked, right? So your ability to tease out what's causing what really starts to drive the next steps.

[27:36]

What we're trying to avoid though, is this notion that sometimes is pervasive in schools today. You know, if I could just get rid of the worst kid in my class, my class would become awesome. And it's always around behavior, right? Well, listen, what happens when you get rid of the worst kid in your class? And I think we all know the answer. You get a new worst kid, right?

[27:59]

It's, you know, it's the box of Kleenex theory. You pull one out, another one pops up. In fact, by its simple definition, you know, being a comparative term, by the time you got down to the last kid in your class, that'd be the worst kid you have. started off as your top kid, but there's nobody else left to compare to. And that's not good enough evidence to start driving kids towards certain interventions, right? That's sometimes what happens on a personal level.

[28:28]

You know, Justin functions really well in Chris's class, but doesn't function in Tom's class. Well, maybe the first point of thing we ought to be doing is looking at what's going on in Chris's class and Tom's class, looking to see that Chris is fascinated when Justin doodles and engages him in conversation. Tom is annoyed when Justin doodles and tries to consequence him. So, you know, which came first? Is that a kid behavior problem or is that an adult perception problem? And so we got to tease this out before we start to.

[29:00]

We wouldn't randomly assign without much evidence kids to tier two and tier three on the academic domain. And we've got to step back from this personalizing it to say, this is what must happen for this kid. You know, Chris mentioned it. This behavior is all day long. It can't just be in one of eight classes the kid's taking. I think that might be an adult problem, not a kid problem.

[29:23] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

Here's maybe another practical example, a lived experience. When I was last principal in my last principal job, boy, did we get pretty good at developing academic systems of support. I remember a fourth grade teacher coming in and saying, well, Chris, there's a kiddo in my class, you know, I think you know him. Boy, does he need that reading intervention that we've been doing. He needs it bad. And I knew this student a little, and I knew that this is back a ways, Justin, when we had some pretty robust, overly robust statewide assessments and even district-wide assessments.

[29:54]

Not that that's a good thing, but nonetheless, I had a lot of evidence that the kiddo in question was performing at or even a little bit above grade level and in the area of reading. And so I, as anybody colleague would do, a principal in my case, I asked, well, what is it about which you have concerns? Well, Chris, he's not doing any work. He just doesn't seem to care. He has no motivation. So the best intervention is a targeted intervention.

[30:17]

This reading comprehension intervention for which this well-meaning teacher had interest was not the intervention for this kiddo. And so I explained that to her and then said, we need to do something. We're going to do something. But at that point, behavior wasn't as much of a area of expertise, relatively speaking, for me or for us. And so we thought, well, what is it we would do for that, for those kiddos and for all of our kiddos? And just as Tom said, we looked at the core environment and thought, how engaging is our lesson?

[30:45]

How engaging, what are our expectations around student engagement? Do they know what it looks like to be engaged and participative? And then for these kiddos in particular, for whom the area need was relatively greater, we did provide some supplemental supports, which would in this case would have been tier two through that check-in checkout process.

[31:03] Justin Baeder:

So the book is the MTSS Roadmap. And Chris Weber and Tom here, if people want to get in touch with you and learn more about working together, I want to emphasize that this is not stuff to simply quote to your teachers and then assume that they will be able to run with it. This is capacity building work. So if people want to get in touch with you about doing some of that capacity building work, what are some of the best places for them to go online to contact you?

[31:27] Tom Hierck & Chris Weber:

thirk at gmail.com my website tomhirk.com chris and i both do some work by a solution tree around some of the content particularly as it's related to the books they've published on our behalf so they're always a good good group to reach out to as well you bet and i'll share my email address it's also a gmail it's chi.educate at gmail.com tom and chris thank you so much for joining me on principal center radio it's been a pleasure thanks justin thanks for your time

[31:57] Announcer:

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